MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Cathar Kether (History)
Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Is there a linguistic connection between 'Cathar' and the Hebrew 'Kether'? I have seen Kether written as Cether which is getting mighty close to Cathar.

As you probably know Kether is the crowning sephiroth in the Cabalist tree often symbolized by a skull - the Cabalist symbol of wisdom. The Languedoc region has at times had a strong Jewish presence.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

You're right about the Jews in the south of France -- Septimania was only one of four Jewish states that I know of (Israel, the Khazar Empire and then Israel again being the others) but I have never NEVER been able to find out anything about this very weird entity.
Send private message
Wireloop


In: Detroit
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Ishmael wrote:
Is there a lingistic connection between 'Cathar' and the Hebrew 'Kether'? I have seen Kether written as Cether which is getting mighty close to Cathar.

Hard K soft C.

The first question then we need to ask is:
Did the Hebrew language tolerate its letters K (hebrew: Kaf) and C (Hebrew:Samech) to be interchangeable as it is in the English language?

In English there is a transliterated word from the Hebrew spelled 'Cathar' (pronounced SAW-THAR) which means 'hide / conceal / secret'.

1 Kings:And the word of the JEHOVAH came unto him (Elijah), saying "Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide (hebrew: CATHAR) thyself by the brook Cherith, that [is] before Jordan.

Now notice how this word is translated into Greek via the Septuaginta:

kata anatolas kai krybethi en to cheimarro Chorrath toward east and conceal in the rain-swollen Cherith

Based upon the above Greek text we can see that the Hellenized Jews substituted the Hebrew word CATHAR (soft C, sounds like ssss) with the Greek word KRYBETHI (hard K).

Why would they do that? You would think that when doing a translation of any particular word they would at least try to choose a word that begins with the same sound, eh? Well perhaps they did.

Perhaps the C (Hebrew: samech) and K (Hebrew: kaf) were interchangeable in speech to a certain degree, especially under particular circumstances...like when somebody (50% of the population) was missing teeth or something...I dunno. This ambiguous-mingled part of speech would inevitably end up in their writings. There is after all a slight, though definite, 'kicking-hiss' sound when saying chair, church, teacher, etc.. and 'ch' is oftentimes pronounced like 'sh' e.g., chalet, Chevrolet.

The Greek word KRYBETHI means to conceal-hide-secrete, and it also has a phonetic 'r' (rho) and a 'th' (theta), just like the Hebrew word CATHAR. So, presuming that the Hebrews knew that their scriptures would be read aloud in Greek, they intentionally strove for some degree of phonetic purity when translating into Greek. And we can begin to churn the idea that the letter 'k' (Hebrew: kahf) could have been at times pronounced like a 'soft c'.

Oh, did I mention that the Hebrew letter 'k' (kahf) looks like a backwards 'c' ?
Send private message
DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

So Kether appears at the top of the Cabalist tree because a 'distillate' {to coin a linguistic phrase} from surrounding/grasping is crown. And for all we know, Cathar could be a pun on purity and crown (and perhaps keth-, writing).
Send private message
Wireloop


In: Detroit
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The phonetic KATHAR in Greek basically means 'to clean' or 'to purge'.

In the Septuaginta KATHAR is the Greek translation of several Hebrew words including TOHAR and ZAK.

Exodus: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness (Greek:KATHAR, Hebrew:TOHAR).
Leviticus: Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure (Greek: KATHAR, Hebrew:ZAK) oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.

Now, in Hebrew the phonetic Kether/Kathar generally means 'to surround' or 'to grasp'.

Judges: Thus they inclosed (Hebrew:KATHAR) the Benjamites round about, and chased them, and trode them down with ease over against Gibeah toward the sunrising.
Psalms: Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass (Hebrew:KATHAR) me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The Jews were run out of Spain under Ferdinand and with them went the Zohar into the Languedoc. So you have this mysterious appearance of a gnostically-oriented culture in the south of France with a name that seems to have a lingusitic connection to the symbol that represented the zenith of Cabalist self knowledge.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The Jews were run out of Spain under Ferdinand and with them went the Zohar into the Languedoc.

The Jews were in the area long before 1492, the area called Septimania which is Languedoc-Roussillon on the Golfe de Lion littoral, was overrun by the Moors in 719 sweeping up from Andalucia, re-taken by the Franks under Charles Martel in 732, but defended by "Goths and Jews". In 752 the Gothic counts transferred their allegiance to the Franks rather than be ruled from Cordoba. The area was fought over with bewildering regularity and after the mini reconquest was eventually ruled by the counts of Toulouse in the early Middle Ages, by which time it was Languedoc with Roussillon in the south and Foix in the west. It seems to have been ruled for a time by a branch called Resh Galuta from Baghdad originally, said to be of the House of David.

In the middle to later 700's, the district came under the authority of a Theodoric, who is often also referred to as "Makhir". This Makhir has been identified as Makhir Natronai, Resh Galuta in Baghdad, exiled from that place in a succession dispute. Theodoric-Makhir established a dynasty in Septimania wich endured for better than 70 years, until the 840's. Muted and equivocal evidence suggests that Theodoric and his descendents established a Jewish-led state, and this is not entirely improbable - the south of France has always been a region influenced by many and diverse cultural elements and strains of thought, and heterodox opinions have deeply penetrated the region (it was, for example, a major center for Cathari and Albigensian heretics in the 13th century).

Despite, or maybe because of, being pulled apart by Franks, Moors and Visigoths, the region was famous for its gestes or chansons. One of the rulers of Septimania, Bernat (also Count of Barcelona), was the son of St. William of Gellone, or Guillaume d'Orange, second count of Toulouse and hero of Chanson de Guillaume, which gave rise to a cycle of epic poems centring around William. [According to the Holy Blood Holy Grail authors, he was the son of Theodoric, king of the Jews of Septimania and therefore a descendant of the House of David, which would mean he was a medieval Jewish saint...]
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

In a truly roundabout twist, a certain 'Guillaume' of Orange became the patron saint of that very rum branch of the Masonic Movement, the Orange Order of Northern Ireland.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I'm now lead back to the original question - did the Cabbalist liturgy and symbolism go to the Languedoc or come from it to Spain?
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

did the Cabbalist liturgy and symbolism go to the Languedoc or come from it to Spain?

The Kabbala is said to have originated in 12th century Provence. There is another branch though, the Hermetic Kabbala, which seems to have had links with Rosicrucians and Freemasons, a more humanist tradition although still with Jewish roots, and this flourished as a result of the 1492 expulsion from Spain, coinciding with Renaissance interest in Plato and pre-Christian philosophies. 'Zohar' means radiant, there's a theory that Zoroatrianism played a part in shaping Jewish philosophy during the 'Babylonian Exile' (600-500 BCE); the book of kabbalistic lore called The Zohar was written in the fourteenth century.

Sephardic Jews are from Morocco, reaching Spain via Africa probably during the Roman expansion in the second century BCE, though the term usually means Spanish Jews and their post-1492 descendants, many of whom returned to their North African roots after the expulsion. So the Kabbala tradition might not have any authentic Spanish connection if Spain under the Moors was simply the host country where Jewish culture was allowed to flourish.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I think Yates covered the Hermetic transmission well between her books on Geordano Bruno, The Rosicrucian Enlightenment and The Occult Philosphy in the Elizabethan Age. I'm still curious about the early groups you mentioned in the Languedoc and if there is a Cabalist liturgy that is well documented from the time.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I'm still curious about the early groups you mentioned in the Languedoc and if there is a Cabalist liturgy that is well documented from the time.

Not sure how much documentation (reliable, that is) exists on the legacy of the Cathars (pronounced 'catarrh', maybe cos they got up the noses of the Catholic Church). Problem one is that in their zeal to extirpate the very roots of heresy as they saw it, any pro-literature would have gone on the pyre, especially after the Inquisition (and the Dominican Order) were introduced into the region. Problem two is that without original texts surviving, we can only learn about the Cathars through the writings of their detractors or, even more dubious, through the eyes of those celebrating their martyrdom.

The question of literature is important here as the troubadours ('trouveres') are seen as the originators or precursors to 'modern' literature (novels, poetry, romances, etc.), they were an integral part of the thriving Languedoc culture, which spread outwards to the rest of western Europe during the 12th and 13th centuries (Eleanor of Aquitaine was the grand-daughter of the earliest known troubadour, William IX, Duke of Aquitaine, she married the king of France and was later married to Henry II of England and her daughter, Countess Marie of Champagne, was the patron of Chretien de Troyes).

[My history teacher once told me it was a question of how 'oui' (yes) was pronounced, her enigmatic way of saying it was a war of language, Langue d'oc (Occitan) v. Langue d'oil, and Occitan was wiped out in the crushing defeat, some would say genocide, of the Cathars.]

The Cathars were an austere and spiritual sect, hence the threat to Catholicism. The Kabbala seems to be the Jewish Oral Law, as opposed to the literal, written one, concentrating on finding and understanding hidden meanings in the scriptures, and there are doubtless many Kabbalist treatises and teachers around (not Madonna, perhaps), there's the Zohar itself, the 'Book of Splendour'.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Hatty wrote:
Not sure how much documentation (reliable, that is) exists on the legacy of the Cathars (pronounced 'catarrh', maybe cos they got up the noses of the Catholic Church).


Is it possible that the Cathars are also known by another name?

Cathars

Cathas

Cothas

Gothas

Goths
Send private message
Wireloop


In: Detroit
View user's profile
Reply with quote

I suspect that there is more here than meets the eye.

As I have pointed out, a Greek word for 'clean/pure' is KATHAR, and a Hebrew word for 'surround/encompass' is KATHAR/KETHER. These Greek and Hebrew words are both phonetically the same, but apparently quite different in usage. This does not make much sense to me because of the huge similarities between Hebrew and Greek. If the words sound the same, then they should at least have some similarity in usage, right?

Now, there is an interesting verse in Proverbs that uses the Hebrew word KATHAR in the context of knowledge.
Proverbs: The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned/encompassed (Hebrew:KATHAR) with knowledge.
Knowledge, I thought, could resemble a sort of 'purity' eh? In fact the Hebrew word KETHER is translated as 'crown', and just the mention of the word 'kingdom' brings to mind the idea of an encompassing realm of purity and knowledge.

Now, one of the primary Greek words for the process of mind/thought/knowing is 'GNOMA', from which we get the Greek word GNOSIS.

I happened upon the Greek word KATHEIRGNUMI. As you know many Greek words are 'compound words' which this one happens to look like...to me at least. It seems to be an Ionic compound of the Greek words KATHAR and GNOMA, meaning 'to surround with the mind'. Does this one word virtually parallel the passage in Proverbs above which indicates that the prudent are 'crowned/encompassed with knowledge' and hence are 'pure/cleansed'? A sort of 'kingdom within'?

Or conversely, can it refer to those whose minds are encompassed, i.e., held prisoner. Indeed, I have found that the word KATHEIRGNUMI many times is also used in the context of 'prison'.

As you know from the Treasure Hunt, the pure and cleansed are those, who with a 'renewed mind', left the cave and had their diseased souls cleansed. BUT the word KATHEIRGNUMI does not 'ever' seem to be translated as 'encompassed with the mind', it only seems to be translated as 'encompassed', just like the Hebrew word KATHAR.

So the question is, why does the Greek word KATHEIRGNUMI, which seems to mean Encompass-Mind only mean 'encompass', just like the Hebrew word KATHAR?

It is obvious at least that in both Hebrew and Greek the word KATHAR (as a root) 'phonetically' implies surrounding, and that it somewhat branched out into the context of purity and knowledge.
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Now, there is an interesting verse in Proverbs that uses the Hebrew word KATHAR in the context of knowledge.
Proverbs: "The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned/encompassed (Hebrew:KATHAR) with knowledge.
Knowledge, I thought, could resemble a sort of 'purity' eh
?

The word prudent is unusual in this context, it seems to imply that knowledge should be kept to oneself or restricted to the select few, not shared with the "simple". If knowledge, or the search for (hidden) meaning, is kept deliberately within a certain group, it quickly becomes associated with the occult, as in the case of the Freemasons for example, often linked with Jewish 'cults', indistinguishable from each other according to some views. (It can't be a coincidence that in the south of France Jewish learning and culture flourished alongside other sects such as Rosicrucians and Freemasons.)
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Jump to:  
Page 1 of 3

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group