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A Dove Tale (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Boreades wrote:
Those two columns or pillars are also reminiscent of what we see in the painting by Cornelius de Vos, famous for his mythological, biblical and history scenes.



The Anointing of Solomon.

All good "royal narratives", like the Bayeux Tapestry, contain imagery that seek to legitimises the royal actions by association with "higher realms".


You might have to spell it out to me. I see a duality in the columns. But then what?
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Hatty wrote:
Officially crone is claimed to be derived from 'carrion' i.e. carcass [caroigne in French, 'caro' Latin]. Certainly crows and ravens are and were carrion birds so clearly crow and crone have a concept in common besides a similar etymology.


Hmm, but if we go for a French derivation, what is crone in French?

Hatty wrote:
Crow and Dove seem to represent Body and Soul, the former being deemed contemptible thanks to the high-mindedness of certain Christian sects or a more general anti-Megalithic stance. In either case the widespread hostility towards crows and reverence of doves appear to be culturally determined since pigeons are just as, if not more, destructive of crops.


Agreed, and mention of high-mindedness of certain Christian sects makes me wonder how similar is this to the Goats and Sheep metaphor? Crows are famously intelligent animals. You don't want them disturbing the doves or sheep or sheeple with intelligent thoughts..
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
You might have to spell it out to me. I see a duality in the columns. But then what?


Across many faiths, two columns represent a (self-acclaimed) righteous organisation, with authority given by (whatever God or Gods you like to put in the brackets) that legitimalises the actions of the chosen organisation that invokes that higher authority.

Circular and self-serving logic? Of course!

We might remember the Sunday School tale of Samson and Delilah, which in a mangled metaphor talks about the downfall of an organisation that had ceased to be righteous (the baddies of the story are the Philistines) by the action of a devout person (a Nazirite) who broke the pillars that gave them authenticity.

I leave it to you to find the metaphorical links between (Samson of) "Nazirite" and (Jesus of) "Nazareth". There might be extra points for an uncomfortable but worthwhile journey into where the "Nazi" name came from.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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There's so much here that is tantalizing. And no one present has greater desire than I to deconstruct Christopher Columbus.

But I need an argument.

Simply asserting the CHR links Crone, Christ and Crow isn't good enough. I want more! I'm hungry for more. If you have it---whoever you are---share it! If you don't have it, find it!
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Crone, Christ and Crow ... has anyone mentioned Chronos yet?

Chronos (/ˈkroʊnɒs/; Greek: Χρόνος, "time,"
Chronos is usually portrayed through an old, wise man with a long, grey beard, similar to Father Time.


Like the Druids, or the Watchers, the timekeepers of the observed and ordered universe?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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I came across a post on the Facebook page of a Holy Wells & Sacred Springs group which recounts the legend of St Kenelm's Well. Note the typos.

Hi, I am a storyteller and became fascinated in wells through the story of this one, the well of Saint Kenlem near Clent. He was the son of the Merican King, Kenwulf and was beheaded by the dark haired lover of his sister, a man called Askobert. Askobert went to kill him but the young prince stated that he dreamt of another place that he would die and drove a staff into the ground that sprouted and grew into the Sacred Ash of Kenelm. Askobert walked him further, killed him and buried him in a shallow grave. A dove flew from the body and travelled to drop a letter on the lap of the Pope and he sent his men to find the body, when they unearthed it, the water sprung out ... so the story goes anyway ...


Merican should read Mercian of course but the story is worth a second look because it appears Kenelm was "famous throughout medieval Europe" and there are several parallels with Colomba/us and the finding of 'Merica.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Kenelm

Interestingly, the village of Winchcombe where Kenelm was enshrined is a couple of miles north-west of Cleeve Hill, the highest hill of the Cotswolds, the site of "the Neolithic long-barrow, Belas Knap" as per Wiki.

One of the more unseemly aspects of the legend is the tug-of-war over the saint's remains, not dissimilar to the Spanish and Portuguese line of demarcation but what is most bizarre are the 'Megalithic' aspects of the saint's legend...beheading, staff-striking to form a spring, light shining over thicket... and a dove carrying a message. Anyway the dove motif is obviously very old indeed. It sounds like America's founding myth was elided with this popular story or even directly modelled on it, with the dove as bearer of incontrovertible proof.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
Anyway the dove motif is obviously very old indeed. It sounds like America's founding myth was elided with this popular story or even directly modelled on it, with the dove as bearer of incontrovertible proof.


Huh????

Why do so many posters here assume their readers have ESP? Please include in your follow-up post ALL of the relevant thoughts inside your head.

And no. I am never opaque except when I am intentionally so.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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It was a bit of an ESP moment reading 'Merica' instead of 'Mercia' which led to the story of St Kenelm, apparently "widely venerated" in pre-Reformation Europe. After his martyrdom, his whereabouts were announced by a dove carrying a written message to the pope at St Peter's.

Kenelm's soul rose in the form of a dove carrying a scroll, and flew away to Rome where it dropped the scroll at the feet of the Pope.

In the legend St Kenelm is a child-martyr; aged seven he was decapitated by his tutor/guardian (or more luridly his elder sister's lover) in the Clent Hills. The most famous child-saint, in the Anglo-Saxon canon, was one of our favourite 'Megalithic saints', St Rombold, who also has a link with the area. From Victoria County History:

Clent is a hilly parish containing besides the village of Clent the hamlets of Upper Clent, where is situated the church, Lower Clent, Adam's Hill, Holy Cross and Rumbold, divided from the rest of the parish by Walton Hills, of which Holy Cross is the most populous.

There are St Kenelm shrines dotted around Worcestershire and Gloucestershire. The earliest account of this saint is from Winchcombe, with a parish church of St Peter's, 'famous for its grotesques'. The dove in the story is supposed to have carried its message to the high altar at St. Peter's.

It may be that some of the well-known elements of intrigue, betrayal, doves were borrowed from the Columbus story.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
It may be that some of the well-known elements of intrigue, betrayal, doves were borrowed from the Columbus story.


But heavens sakes where do these elements appear in the Columbus story? I've never heard of such elements. Neither has the whole of Christendom.

Enlighten us!!

Please itemize each element with its Columbus story parallel. That's what is missing. You assume I know these things. How in heck would I? So far as I can tell there's no parallel. A kid gets killed in the woods and a spear turns into a pear tree and you say, "Well there you go!" Huh?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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For example.

By sheer coincidence, I happen to be reading a book at present about circumnavigators in which this division of the planet into "Spanish" and "Portuguese" portions is discussed at some length. Before reading this book, I didn't even know about this. Had I not been reading it, I would have had no idea what you were talking about when you wrote...

Hatty wrote:
One of the more unseemly aspects of the legend is the tug-of-war over the saint's remains, not dissimilar to the Spanish and Portuguese line of demarcation...


It seems to my mind that this "Spanish and Portuguese line of demarcation" business is a fact of such obscurity as to escape the knowledge of every person who has not already earned or is not presently working on a PHD in Renaissance European History. You might want to explain what it is when you mention it.

And you might also wish to defend the rather streatchy link you propose between that historical event and the haggling over a child's body in a story. If there's some rational reason I should see a a parallel, I should like to know it. You might just as soon relate it to the casting of lots over the cloak of Christ and I see as little parallel there.

All the same, I suspect you've got something of interest here and that's why I want to hear it.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
It was a bit of an ESP moment reading 'Merica' instead of 'Mercia' ...


Did you see my previous post on this subject?

Ishmael wrote:
I can't believe I've never noticed this peculiar similarity between the name America and the word Mercia. Apparently, Mercia means "border people." Maybe. Maybe not.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Ishmael, I am shocked a) at your ignorance and b) your casual assumption that your ignorance is shared by others. Even my dog (who is a Protestant) knows that the Pope divvied up the world between Spain and Portugal; (Treat of something or other ...sillas, 1494 or somesuch -- I am deliberately putting it this way because it is so well known as be on the tip of one's tongue). Certainly any well-educated English person would know of the event.

Why do you think Brazil speaks Portuguese and the rest of South America speaks Spanish? Yes, it's' because of the Treaty of whatsit (as amended later by the Pope I seem to remember). Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know about the language situation in South America .... well, it's like this ...
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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What I read is that Spain got the West and Portugal got the East. So it's rather a surprise to be to learn that Brazilians speak Portuguese. And yeah...I assumed they spoke Spanish.

And hang on---if the Portuguese got the east, how exactly did the Philippines come to be Spanish colonies?

I wonder if all this history was just made up after the fact.

Probably.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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I'll try to explain in words that my dog would understand. The demarcation was such and such line of longitude which happened to cut through South America -- hence Spanish to the west and Portuguese to the east (have a look at a map -- they're the coloured thingies in books).

Since the whole world was demarcated that means there's a line of longitude on the other side of the world, 180 degrees away. This time, it will be the Spanish to the east (eg the Philippines) and the Portuguese to the west (eg India, Indonesia etc). Yes, later British and Dutch, it's confusing ...but still, my dog's nodding.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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ahhhh...... I see it now.
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