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A Dove Tale (NEW CONCEPTS)

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Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire

I doubt a change in the ruling regime would have lead to ordinary folk changing domestic habits they had engaged in for generations.

On the contrary, we're talking about the dismemberment of an empire. A situation that surely caused considerable disruption to daily lives and habits, comparable to the end of the British Empire, or the former USSR in more recent times.

Chad

In: Ramsbottom

You're absolutely dead right. - I've been mulling over this point and was just about to edit my last post .... the last thing on people's minds would have been looking after dovecotes.

So we now have a hungry mob of doves looking for a new food source.......just at the very time that a massive increase in cereal production lands on their doorstep - wow!.....god must really be looking out for these critters. No wonder they.re sacred!

Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire

the last thing on people's minds would have been looking after dovecotes.

I'm not sure how much or whether politico-social upheavals drastically affect native birdlife even in the aftermath of a Great War; it's not a coincidence though that this is when south-east Europe and other countries previously under Ottoman rule entered into the Technological Age of telegraph, telephone and radio. Doves no longer required as a means of communication were not merely surplus to requirements but presumably unwelcome.

Ishmael

In: Toronto

Chad wrote:

......... Middle East as far west as Turkey and part of the Balkans.

......it struck me that this felt familiar......what else occupied this exact same area in the sixteen-hundreds?................ISLAM!!!!! ......the Persian Empire in the east and the Ottoman Empire in the west....

And the birds made it as far west as the Bahamas you say?

Nicely "dovetails" with my sometime-held suspicion that the Americas were actually discovered by Muslims.

Chad

In: Ramsbottom

Ishmael wrote:

And the birds made it as far west as the Bahamas you say? Nicely "dovetails" with my sometime-held suspicion that the Americas were actually discovered by Muslims.

Only if the historical timeframe is all to cock................. mind you................ isn't that another one of your sometime-held suspicions?

Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London

Now we're in the Americas, I would draw your attention to the following: here is something about the passenger pigeon.

The Passenger Pigeon, once probably the most numerous bird on the planet, made its home in the billion or so acres of primary forest that once covered North America east of the Rocky Mountains. Their flocks, a mile wide and up to 300 miles long, were so dense that they darkened the sky for hours and days as the flock passed overhead. Population estimates from the 19th century ranged from 1 billion to close to 4 billion individuals. Total populations may have reached 5 billion individuals and comprised up to 40% of the total number of birds in North America. This may be the only species for which the exact time of extinction is known.

The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited over-hunting. Tens of thousands of individuals were harvested daily from nesting colonies, and shipped to markets in the east. Modern technology hastened the demise of the Passenger Pigeon. With the coming of the telegraph, the locations of flocks could be ascertained, and the birds relentlessly pursued

This bird was made for flight. Estimates are that it could reach flight speeds of 60 to 70 mph, and possibly even faster. The long slender wings were bluish, and the pointed 8 to 9 inch tail was white and gray.

Passenger Pigeons bred in large colonies, with up to 100 nests in a single tree. Nesting colonies could cover from 30 up to 850 square miles of forest. The nest was loosely made of small twigs. Generally, one egg was laid and incubated by both parents. Both parents tended the chick, and after about 2 weeks, the chick, still unable to fly, would be abandoned. The entire flock would depart, and the chicks would drop to the ground. After a few days, the chicks would begin to fly and to care for themselves.

The Passenger Pigeon is now extinct. Over hunting, the clearing of forests to make way for agriculture, and perhaps other factors doomed the species. The decline was well under way by the 1850's. The last nesting birds were reported in the Great Lakes region in the 1890's. The last reported individuals in the wild were shot at Babcock, Wisconsin in 1899, and in Pike County, Ohio on March 24, 1900. Some individuals, however, remained in captivity. The last Passenger Pigeon, named Martha, died alone at the Cincinnati Zoo at about 1:00 pm on September 1, 1914. Who could have dreamed that within a few decades, the once most numerous bird on Earth would be forever gone?

It is not obscure or specially chosen, it just happens to be the first thing that comes up when googling 'Passenger Pigeons'. So having read it, now say to yourself, "Nah, that just can't be...." and see if an "Unless..." springs to mind. And give an overall reason for the phenomenon (while trying desperately to avoid orthodox liberal drippy hand-wringing sentimentality).

DPCrisp

In: Bedfordshire

Wikipedia has pages and pages on this stuff: I can't be arsed to wade through it all. I presume it all works much the same way -- unlike orthodoxy, who likes to cite causes by the bucket load. e.g.

Other significant reasons for [ the passenger pigeon's ] extinction were deforestation... and probably social factors - the birds seemed to have initiated courtship and reproduction when they were gathered in large numbers; it was noted that small groups of Passenger Pigeons were notoriously difficult to get to breed successfully.

This is either all one reason -- human intervention -- or insignificant in the face of concerted hunting.

So, how the hell did passenger pigeons become so numerous in the first place?

The Passenger Pigeon, once probably the most numerous bird on the planet, made its home in the billion or so acres of primary forest that once covered North America east of the Rocky Mountains.

Not most numerous because most widespread then: anomalously numerous just in North America.

The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited over-hunting.

Well, it can't have been over-hunting.

Passenger Pigeons bred in large colonies, with up to 100 nests in a single tree.

So felling one tree wipes out a lot of birds.

after about 2 weeks, the chick, still unable to fly, would be abandoned. The entire flock would depart, and the chicks would drop to the ground. After a few days, the chicks would begin to fly and to care for themselves.

Manna from heaven -- if there had been any predators (or people) around to hoover them up off the forest floor. They sure wouldn't have numbered in the billions.

The plague of American passenger pigeons was not unlike the plague of Trafalgar Square pigeons then.

How many other well-known-to-be-extinct animals are only well known because their numbers boomed before busting under human influence?

Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London

Wikipedia has pages and pages on this stuff: I can't be arsed to wade through it all.

A typical Dan reply. Wikipedia does not have pages and pages on this stuff.

Please, Dan, you can see this is just learned waffle. It applies to several zillion bird species.

This is either all one reason -- human intervention -- or insignificant in the face of concerted hunting.

Well, you choose...or expand....

So, how the hell did passenger pigeons become so numerous in the first place?

No answer, came the stern reply.

Not most numerous because most widespread then: anomalously numerous just in North America.

Ooh, how interesting. Does this finding stir the Great Danian Brain....no.

The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited over-hunting.

Well, it can't have been over-hunting.

How true. One blast of the shotgun and several million birds are off (at seventy miles per hour no less!)

Passenger Pigeons bred in large colonies, with up to 100 nests in a single tree.

So felling one tree wipes out a lot of birds.

Not an ornithologist, are you Dan? The birds fly away before the tree falls. Might lose a few eggs I suppose.

Manna from heaven -- if there had been any predators (or people) around to hoover them up off the forest floor. They sure wouldn't have numbered in the billions.

Ach so! A telling point.

The plague of American passenger pigeons was not unlike the plague of Trafalgar Square pigeons then.

How many other well-known-to-be-extinct animals are only well known because their numbers boomed before busting under human influence?

Well, perhaps you could tell us. You have, apparently found pages and pages on Wikipedia describing the phenomenon.

Ishmael

In: Toronto

Mick Harper wrote:

The Passenger Pigeon, once probably the most numerous bird on the planet, made its home in the billion or so acres of primary forest that once covered North America east of the Rocky Mountains.

This statement puzzles me. So far as I know, there's barely a difference between the amount of forest "east of the rocky mountains" in 2008 than there was is 1808. In fact, some estimates are that the amount of woodland in the continental United States has increased in that time!

I can certainly say that any bird that wanted a tree to nest in (and a single tree is said to support hundred of birds!) would have no trouble finding one in Canada! The country is covered in trees.

Total populations may have reached 5 billion individuals and comprised up to 40% of the total number of birds in North America.

40% of the total number of birds? That does not seem like a natural proportion for a species to achieve but it occurs to me now that this number is indicative of an unnatual population. My guess is that someone was cultivating the passenger pigeon and when that cultivation ceased, the protected population failed. But why did the cultivation cease and who was cultivating the bird?

The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited over-hunting.

Perhaps it is most accurate simply to state, "The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited hunting." From which it follows that they may have been designed for this purpose.

This bird was made for flight. Estimates are that it could reach flight speeds of 60 to 70 mph, and possibly even faster. The long slender wings were bluish, and the pointed 8 to 9 inch tail was white and gray.

Isn't it funny that a bird 'made for flight' is coincidentally tossed from its nest just days prior to gaining the ability and abandoned by its parents?

Passenger Pigeons bred in large colonies, with up to 100 nests in a single tree. Nesting colonies could cover from 30 up to 850 square miles of forest. The nest was loosely made of small twigs. Generally, one egg was laid and incubated by both parents. Both parents tended the chick, and after about 2 weeks, the chick, still unable to fly, would be abandoned. The entire flock would depart, and the chicks would drop to the ground. After a few days, the chicks would begin to fly and to care for themselves.

It's obvious what happened to the Passenger Pigeon.

It was bred to drop conveniently to the ground at a specific time of year where it would be easily harvested by human beings. Those same human beings guarded the areas from other predators. Those human beings were Indians, of course.

But in the 19th century, Indians began to purchase food. They didn't need to cultivate it. The breeding grounds for their domesticated pigeons were no longer tended and natural predators invaded. It was these who, in just a few short years, wiped out the pigeons. These birds had no natural defence and were bred to fall to earth in a helpless state. Humans did not kill them. Humans made them. Predators killed them.

Chad

In: Ramsbottom

it was noted that small groups of Passenger Pigeons were notoriously difficult to get to breed successfully.

As Mick said, this isn't unique to passenger pigeons. - Flamingos are notoriously difficult to breed in captivity - if the flock is below a critical mass. To overcome this some wildlife parks surround their enclosures with mirrors, which seem to do the trick.

Perhaps Ishmael's Indians didn't have enough mirrors to keep small breeding colonies, so had to maintain these unnaturally large protected flocks. Selective breeding could have produced a bird with an exaggerated flocking instinct. But this could also have lead to its demise, probably at the hands of commercial hunters, not natural predators. .... I doubt it would have been directly from hunting, but more from the dispersal they would have caused.

Maybe flocks large enough to stimulate a breeding response would also be large enough to attract hunters. Those flocks too small to interest the hunters, were maybe too small to induce breeding .......catch 22?

Chad

In: Ramsbottom

I wrote:

............probably at the hands of commercial hunters, not natural predators. .... I doubt it would have been directly from hunting, but more from the dispersal they would have caused.

No, I've changed my mind. ... just had a vision of hunters chasing pigeons around, like something out of a Benny Hill show ....Ishmael's idea sounds much better than my load of old tripe.

Taking a slight diversion............I find this rather interesting:

The mourning dove, Zenaidura macroura, closest relative of the passenger pigeon, Ectopistes migratorius resembles the passenger pigeon in shape and coloring. This has often led to mistaken identification and false reports of passenger pigeons long after they became extinct.

Could the passenger pigeon be a domesticated version of the mourning dove?

Strange though.....if these birds are similar enough to be mistaken for one another, how come our ornithological friends don't even place them in the same genus?

Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London

The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited over-hunting.

Perhaps it is most accurate simply to state, "The immense roosting and nesting colonies invited hunting." From which it follows that they may have been designed for this purpose.

I hadn't thought of that aspect. Directly. Though the fact that passenger pigeons near-relations -- the pigeons, doves etc -- are kept in colonies aka dove-cots, pigeon cages, Trafalgar Square etc had certainly not escaped me.

Isn't it funny that a bird 'made for flight' is coincidentally tossed from its nest just days prior to gaining the ability and abandoned by its parents?

Your point escapes me. I would have thought "the fastest birds known" would have rather more obvious uses.

Yes, very good. But there are still some gaps that need filling.

Ishmael

In: Toronto

Mick Harper wrote:

It seems to me that a lot of these animals have helplessness in common. The Turkey, Dodo and Passenger Pigeon are either flightless or temporarily flightless. Just as it is with the chicken, I'd say their flightlessness was a selected characteristic. None of these animals would have a chance of survival in the wild without the direct intervention of man.

Isn't it funny that a bird 'made for flight' is coincidentally tossed from its nest just days prior to gaining the ability and abandoned by its parents?

Your point escapes me.

There is a clear symbiotic relationship here between the bird and its 'breeders'. Whether this symbiosis was by design is also not necessarily clear. It may have evolved naturally. Here's how.

There is a hominid in the woods. The hominid has an interesting ability. He can scare away other predators from his potential food by carrying around sticks with fire on them.

There is a bird in the forest that the hominid particularly enjoys eating. The hominid will scare predators away from any area in which this bird can be captured easily. The hominid eats less birds than would otherwise be eaten were other predators present.

Events to Follow: The birds that are easiest to capture will attract the most hominids to their area of the forest. These areas will be safest from predation from other animals. Because the hominids eat fewer birds than the number that would otherwise have been consumed by other predators, the bird populations that are easiest for humans to capture and eat are, counter-intuitively, the most fertile populations!

The birds that are difficult for hominids to catch are not protected by hominids. Therefore, their populations are attacked by other, more adept predators and die in greater numbers.

So the passenger pigeon actually has an evolutionary 'motive' to sacrifice a share of its population to the hominid predator to gain that predator's protection against the larger danger. The pigeon parents throw their children too soon from the nest, sacrificing a number of them for the sake of the greater good. Who can blame the parents for not sticking around to see which of their offspring are chosen to die and which are allowed to live!

The same process can occur by active, selective breeding of course. Any intelligent human need only protect a greater number of fallen birds each year than he consumes. Over a number of centuries, he ought to have a population of birds that tend to fall out of their nests too soon. If he keeps eating fewer than he allows to live -- and eats fewer of the falling birds than predators consume of competing species, he'll eventually have a dominant bird species that is completely dependent upon his good graces.

Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London



Yes, quite a promising line of investigation. One of my problems with all this is giving hominids abilities rather in advance of our own when it comes to...um...animal welfare. But the idea that they were just taking advantage of accidental changes they rather unwittingly triggered is obviously a good one.

Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire

I would have thought "the fastest birds known" would have rather more obvious uses

Are passenger pigeons, like mourning doves, also related to the carrier variety? Just wondered if they might have been used to carry messages, maybe the "cultivators" were nineteenth-century pigeon fanciers.

And the reason the pigeons were no longer useful? Early twentieth-century technology, the telephone, wireless, telegrams, etc.

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