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Holy Smoke (History)
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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The assumption that (H)elen derives from Greek is false. The H is just a latter day addition just as the S is. They are either Romanized or Anglicized interpretations of the earlier Greek. El is not of Greek origin, it comes from much older sources.

Greek has no H for this word just as it has no H for any word that start with el. There is no H in Greek (ancient or modern). The correct Greek is Elena or in the case of the word for Greece Ellas not Hellas as it appears in English and other European written languages.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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The assumption that (H)elen derives from Greek is false... There is no H in Greek (ancient or modern).

Fair enough, Komori, but I don't think we had made that assumption. The way I see it, we have a whole bunch of words of unfathomable antiquity with "scalar" connections, if you like: we can tell they're related, but can't necessarily tell the direction of derivation from one to another. I'd rather say "...as in the Greek... (or Aramaic or Swedish or...)" than "...from the Greek..." and I don't think anyone here would object to that.

How can you be so sure El wasn't derived by dropping the H or S?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Komorikid wrote:
There is no H in Greek (ancient or modern). The correct Greek is Elena or in the case of the word for Greece Ellas not Hellas as it appears in English and other European written languages.

Then what about "Selene?" The Greek name for the Moon?
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Selene is not a derivative of (H)elene, it is a separate word that starts with the Greek Sigma (S).

Eta (η) in Ancient Greek was pronounced ei as in the English their
Capitalised it is written H in Ancient and Modern Greek. When the Greek was translated into Latin it was given the H sound.

Selene (Σ ε λ ή ν η) = s-e-l-ei-n-ei or Seleinei
Helen (H λ ε ν η) = Ei-l-e-n-ei or Eilenei

The English translation makes no distinction between Epsilon and Eta giving them both the same sound.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Further to Hal = salt

I'm not persuaded by this equivalence, just as I don't see why sun and moon should be conflated except for the rather dubious holiness=saltiness reasoning.
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Wireloop


In: Detroit
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In Greek they are two distinct names with two distinct pronunciations.
Ελένη pronounce Elena (with an E emphasis for the Greek letter epsilon) and Σεληνη pronounced Selana (with an A emphasis for the Greek letter eta)

They're neither misinterpreted nor misunderstood in Classic Greek. They are two distinct personages. Any morphing or substitution of one for the other is a product of latter day interpretation.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Wireloop wrote:
They're neither misinterpreted nor misunderstood in Classic Greek. They are two distinct personages. Any morphing or substitution of one for the other is a product of latter day interpretation.

My suggested case is that the two names were once one and derived from a common spoken word in ancient times. This is an effect of literacy we have observed elsewhere, where two variant spelling conventions or symbolic conventions produce two different words from a single original. For example, Jupiter and Iapeter would appear to be just two different spellings of the same name, yet have forever been interpreted as two distinct personages.

If Hal = Sal then there is an apparent connection between the character S and the character H -- it would seem that both symbols were at one time or another used to represent the same sound (whatever that sound was we can't know). This would make Helen and Selen plausible cognates.

However, your argument makes clear how improper it really is to attempt to identify cognates without reference to the native written forms. Anglicized renderings may suggest illegitimate pairings.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Dan wrote:
Yes, I'd heard that they used it coz it was antiseptic.


But when did you hear it? It would be an interesting AE exercise to watch how -- or how long -- orthodoxy takes to adjust its view. Clearly, nobody in their right minds would use blue as a dominant decorative warpaint motif (red, yellow, white, yes..but blue?) yet the Romans were quite adamant on this point. But not surprised...so it would seem they did not know about woad's antiseptic properties either. (Aside: the Druids were vaguely 'in charge' of British armies, would they have told the rank-and-file why they had to rub blue all over themselves?) (Another aside: isn't the blue of Scotland because of Pictish/Gaelic 'war-colour'?)

Perhaps somebody might investigate how all this is affecting current scholarship. My guess is that it won't even have reached the footnote stage yet because historians are constrained by "sources" and if the Romans didn't know and the Druids aren't telling, then historians aren't allowed to draw common sense deductions. Especially when the information comes from outside the discipline ie botany, medicine etc. No, theories of primitive blue-painted naked Brits are certain to be passed on to the young for generations unborn.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Clearly, nobody in their right minds would use blue as a dominant decorative warpaint motif... yet the Romans were quite adamant on this point.


There is still controversy over this, as this website says: http://www.hippy.com/albion/woad.htm.

In Warriors of the Wasteland, Grigsby is keen for the true colour to be green coz of something found on bog bodies.

the Druids were vaguely 'in charge' of British armies, would they have told the rank-and-file why they had to rub blue all over themselves?


The just-before-Julius-Caesar period was supposed to have been all civil warry. Surely they didn't adopt the practice just to face a foreign enemy. Surely they weren't doing it to frighten each other. Either they were all after the same magical effect; or Caesar was only writing about one tribe; or they quickly passed on 'best practice' when unified against the foreign threat. {Gotta be clear about Caesar's first and second visits.} In any case, I presume the Druids would have had something to say about it.

Isn't woad the stuff that stinks to high heaven... where the yarn turns magically from dirty greenish to a rich blue on exposure to the air? I have no idea how woad would have been prepared for application to the skin, nor what colour it would give: oils and pH and stuff might affect the outcome. Have any experimental archaeologists given it a go?

isn't the blue of Scotland because of Pictish/Gaelic 'war-colour'?


Is that the blue of St. Andrew's cross? I thought it would be to do with thistles, but legend has it that St. Andrew became the patron saint because the cross appeared in the blue sky to herald some decisive victory or other. The blue used has varied considerably.

[ aside ]
"...there are several legends which state that the relics of Andrew were brought under supernatural guidance from Constantinople to the place where the modern St Andrews stands (Pictish, Muckross; Gaelic, Cill Rìmhinn)."

St. Andrew, famous for the manner of his crucifixion, was brought to a place called "...cross" in Pictish? Pull the other one.
[ /aside ]

---
If woad-covered warriors suffered less serious injuries, then they would conclude that woad offered some sort of protection without knowing about antiseptic properties (blue is a "protective" colour). Medieval herbalists had a thorough grasp of the medicinal benefits of plants which wasn't scientific but that didn't detract from their curative powers.


As a matter of interest, Mongols wore silk shirts to protect against arrows: but they did know precisely what they were doing.

When I first heard it, I assumed it was a talismanic thing. But no: the silk is fine enough to get entangled with the arrowhead pushed into the wound. Then the arrow could be guided back out the way it came without causing extra damage and minimising infection.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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As a matter of interest, Mongols wore silk shirts to protect against arrows: but they did know precisely what they were doing.


It's amazing what historians do and do not think is important. Since China ran a strict (indeed, paranoid) monopoly over the the whole silk industry, and since the Mongols needed acres of the stuff....
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Mick Harper wrote:
It's amazing what historians do and do not think is important. Since China ran a strict (indeed, paranoid) monopoly over the the whole silk industry, and since the Mongols needed acres of the stuff....


Right. A motive for invasion you think.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Or rather more! We've already had a discussion about what nomads need from sedentaries -- which is not much but what there is is quite important. Now if we move things on a piece and have politically-organised nomads (say, Mongols) and every damned one of them regards a silk chemise as literally a matter of life-and-death and over yonder we have a political state dangling an endless supply of silk chemises at them if only they'll....

This is very much my view of the Druids. The thing about our culture is that we're very inventive but not very secretive, so everybody gets in on the act and things move on very rapidly; the thing about Druids was that they were very inventive and very secretive, so things didn't move on very rapidly. You keep on having to invade Britain...or China...or putting up with their insolence... Anyway you look at it, it's a definite motor-of-history. Or maybe why history in them days didn't motor.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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I was reading a Master and Commander novel and one of the characters mentions that what is called a "Heron" in France is called a "Crane" in England - or maybe it's the reverse - all I know is that I've heard both terms applied to the bird.

"Well," thought I, "How'd the same bird come to be known by two names?"

It didn't. It's the same name. Remember that our earlier studies have indicated that H can sometimes represent the S sound.

Heron Crane

Seron Srane

Serone Serane

I suspect the the original word may in fact be our old friend "Selene" once again (also Helen) and the l was transmuted to an r.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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The Greek word for a temple complex was hieron (holy/sacred), a 'within' place set apart from the profane like a shrine. Tempting to see the heron as a catcher of fish (as per Wireloop). Is there a connection between 'hero' and heron?

There may also be a fire connection, the Latin ardea meaning heron.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Remember that our earlier studies have indicated that H can sometimes represent the S sound.


That's a bit strong. Cognate, I'd've said. (S, like H, can get lost in a word -- in some languages/dialects it's in, in some it's dropped out; quite a regular thing in French -- but I don't know of any cases where we can say the H should be pronounced as an S.)

Heron... Serone... "Selene"... the long-winged Moon


Interesting.

I'm sure you're right about heron and crane, Ish. The professionals disagree. Etymonline:

heron: c.1120s, from O.Fr. hairon, from Frank. *haigiro (cf. O.H.G. heigaro "heron"), from P.Gmc. *khraigran-, from PIE *qriq-, perhaps imitative of its cry (cf. O.C.S. kriku "cry, scream," Lith. kryksti "to shriek"). O.E. cognate hraga did not survive into M.E. {That's probably not true, since ragged means tufted, as the herons and cranes are.}

egret: c.1353, from O.Fr. aigrette, from O.Prov. aigreta, dim. of aigron "heron," {gron = cran!} probably of Gmc. origin (cf. O.H.G. heigaro; see heron.)

crane: O.E. cran "large wading bird," from PIE *ger- (cf. Gk. geranos, Welsh garan, Lith. garnys "heron, stork"), perhaps echoic of its cry.

They make me laugh. Probably this... perhaps that... but traced through a few generations of lost languages.

Note the stork's association with fertility. Is there a less oblique connection between storks and the Moon?

Anyway, there's a short route from H to C: the H = C rule! e.g. corn (Cornwall, cornucopia) = horn.


Also C = K = G and G = H. In fact, just yesterday my wife, noting that the Welsh form of Hugh is Huw, said "is GH a W?" G is definitely U, I said, but I've glossed over the H in enough, burgh and so on. But then the name Geraldo (which sounds like "heraldo" and does mean herald) popped into my head. G = U we already know. But h looks like n and in handwriting, n can be indistinguishable from u. I've got a facsimile of some old document where the u's and n's are made with the same pair of serifed strokes: I can't tell 'em apart. So maybe H = U and GH = W are literal rules, too.
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