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Etruscans (History)
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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We've talked about this elsewhere -- and concluded that "salting" the Earth may have had quite a different meaning originally.

Quite so. But did we find any evidence of anyone using salt or "salt" as a soil improver?

Ritual-wise, The Wicker Man comes to mind. And didn't Pullo(?) go off for a ritual shag on his new estate in the telly series Rome?

There are very specific Laws against spilling white and salty stuff on the ground in Judaism, innit?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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But did we find any evidence of anyone using salt or "salt" as a soil improver?

"Salt of the earth" is said to go back to biblical times as an expression of praise, hence saltpeter/saltpetre (from French, sel de pierre apparently, or salt-encrusted stone)? "Nitrates such as potassium nitrate (saltpeter) and ammonium nitrate are an important source of nitrogen in fertilizers". Also, as discussed elsewhere, in preservation and embalming processes. It would take an immense quantity of salt, a valuable commodity, to be effective (maybe it was used to demarcate areas that were deliberately to be left fallow to encourage rather than prevent new growth, as with fire).

In Spain and the Spanish Empire, salt was poured onto the land owned by a convicted traitor

Likewise, in Portugal, salt was poured onto the land owned by a convicted traitor...

If the estate was considered valuable it would be requisitioned forthwith and the traitor's family disinherited.
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Mick Harper
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This salting of the earth sounds like a suitable case for AE treatment. We can provisionally take the Spanish and Portuguese examples as true -- they ring true -- so we are dealing with something ostensibly ritualistic. It cannot be literally true in the Carthage sense since
a) it would take ludicrous amounts of salt to render land infertile and
b) it would be utterly futile since the 'traitor' would thereby have achieved some of his purpose in harming the state.
So we need to discover what adding salt to land actually does. And no guesses, we leave that sort of thing to orthodoxy.

The solution to this will presumably explain why later historians have 'made it up' since no doubt this will have happened via some creative interpretation of the sources.

And finally what bearing does all this have on a much larger and more important problem: to decide the veracity of reports that entire civilisations (eg the Indus Valley, Mesopotamia) perished because of 'salt on the land' ie orthodoxy claiming that agricultural practices led to salt water encroachment.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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And finally what bearing does all this have on a much larger and more important problem: to decide the veracity of reports that entire civilisations (eg the Indus Valley, Mesopotamia) perished because of 'salt on the land' ie orthodoxy claiming that agricultural practices led to salt water encroachment.

Apparently the salinity of the Nile has increased significantly in recent times since the construction of the Aswan dam reduced the amount of sedimentation; the build-up of salt has forced Egyptian farmers to resort to chemical fertilisers to offset the decline in the soil's fertility.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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One theory to explain the abandonment of Silchester is that the water supply was polluted, whether accidentally or on purpose isn't discussed. Would salting an enemy's wells, especially in a siege situation, be more feasible than 'salting the earth'?
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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"Salt of the earth" is said to go back to biblical times as an expression of praise

Some of our other effusions suggest sal ammoniac is a gift from Amun and/or Amun's jism.

If the estate was considered valuable it would be requisitioned forthwith and the traitor's family disinherited.

And the iniquity salved with salt, apparently.

Yes, I think salting the earth of Carthage has been widely misunderstood.

And finally what bearing does all this have on a much larger and more important problem: to decide the veracity of reports that entire civilisations (eg the Indus Valley, Mesopotamia) perished because of 'salt on the land' ie orthodoxy claiming that agricultural practices led to salt water encroachment.

Dunno anything about that. Since the engineering of water and agricultural resources pretty much sums up civilisation, I'd find it hard to imagine they're right.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
We've talked about this elsewhere -- and concluded that "salting" the Earth may have had quite a different meaning originally.

Quite so. But did we find any evidence of anyone using salt or "salt" as a soil improver?

As we noted, we do it today. The "salt" is called Phosphate -- the world's best fertilizer.

Now if I were novelizing the fall of Carthage, I would have a maritime community of sea-traders and pirates conquered by the Roman land power; the latter would "sow" the surrounding desert regions with Phosphate, thereby refocusing the local culture -- butressed by Roman settlers -- on agriculture.

That would be the only viable way to truly destroy Carthage and prevent it ever rising again: Make it an agrarian rather than maritime city.

But then... I don't believe in the Roman Empire so none of it happened anyway.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Sounds good. But do we know of anyone using mineral fertilisers in the ancient world that could be connected with these salting expressions and practices?
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Mick Harper
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That's a good point. Fritz Haber of the Haber-Bosch Process turned up on telly the other night (as the architect of German Gas warfare) which, as far as I know, was when the modern fertiliser industry started.

But the British canals made most of their money carting 'fertiliser' from farm to other farms...what was that all about?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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That would be the only viable way to truly destroy Carthage and prevent it ever rising again: Make it an agrarian rather than maritime city.

Certainly Carthage being removed as a port would damage Phoenician trade networks especially en route to S America; salt came from the interior, Carthage's hinterland, but wouldn't it be available from other sources? One possible source is Chile whose worldwide nitrate industry took off in the nineteenth century but it's likely the Phoenicians who were familiar with minerals and in contact with SA could have traded in such a valued product.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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But the British canals made most of their money carting 'fertiliser' from farm to other farms...what was that all about?

The mid nineteenth century when canals were being improved was also when agricultural reforms were introduced and 'scientific', transportable manure became available. Farmers had used farmyard manure for centuries but new and appropriate types of fertiliser were developed.
Of these fertilising agencies, farmers in 1837 already knew soot, bones, salt, saltpetre, hoofs and horns, shoddy, and such substances as marl, clay, lime and chalk. But they knew little or nothing of nitrate of soda, of Peruvian guano, of superphosphates, kainit, muriate of potash, rape-dust, sulphate of ammonia, or basic slag. Though nitrate of soda was introduced in 1835, and experimentally employed in small quantities, it was in 1850 still a novelty.
The Royal Agricultural Society was formed in early Victorian times and agriculture grew 'respectable'. Fertilisers became big business.

Bones were beginning to be extensively used. Their import value rose from £14,395 in 1823 to £254,600 in 1837. ..... In 1840 Liebig suggested the treatment of bones with sulphuric acid, and in 1843 Lawes began the manufacture of superphosphate of lime, and set up his works at Bow. So far the chemists; the next step was taken by geologists. At the suggestion of Professor Henslow, the same treatment to which bones were already subjected was applied to coprolites, and the rich deposits of Cambridgeshire and other counties, as well as kindred forms of mineral phosphates, imported from all parts of the world, were similarly "dissolved." Even Peruvian guano was subjected to the same treatment. Another important addition to the wealth of fertilising agencies was made by Odams, who about 1850 discovered the manurial value of the blood and garbage of London slaughter-houses, mixed with bones and sulphuric acid.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
Sounds good. But do we know of anyone using mineral fertilisers in the ancient world that could be connected with these salting expressions and practices?

The most effective way to run a Phosphate-Fertilizer-based agrarian industry is to let nature do the mining, transport and on-site distribution of the primary chemical ingredient.

Phosphate is found quite often within mountains -- where it has been left in massive deposits from the most ancient sea-beds. To get it out, all you need to do is dam off a suitable water-course and have it diverted to run over your target mountain side. The running water will disolve the phosphate year after year, constantly re-salting the fields below when it floods each rainy season.

I believe we call one of these rivers "The Nile".
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berniegreen



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I just love the ingenuity of Ishmael's suggestion but I do feel rather doubtful that the Romans' knowledge of agricultural chemicals was quite up to the level that would have been required.

And there's no doubt, I think, about the fact that Scipio Africanus was a real thug. Not the sort of thinking man to go in for major land improvements. Much more in the slash and burn/rape and pillage mode, by all accounts.
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Leon



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Mick Harper wrote:
You raise an interesting point. The Russians burned their own city to deny it to the Frogs (or so they claim).


In War & Peace Tolstoi reckons that Moscow burned simply because the residents were not there to prevent it: when they abandoned the city, presumably in something of a hurry, somewhere there must have been a candle or two, on a table or a shelf, that had not been extinguished, a smouldering log with a knot that popped an ember out onto the floor. And the buildings were made of wood, as it has been noted. Simple, quite convincing logic. Perhaps other more nationalistic Russians thought that made their 'race' look a little inept, so they said, 'We did it on purpose', scorched earth policy extended to scorched city.
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Mick Harper
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Yes, cock-up sounds authentically Russian. Though, on the other side, they were very good (and very ruthless) about scorching the earth before the French advance (and retreat). One thing you can never accuse Russki high-ups of is worrying about the happiness of the people. Though of course we in the West have often been profoundly thankful for this policy. No doubt they will save us from the Chinese next time.
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