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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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A cross section of a single current strand is like a circle within a larger circle. The inner circle is the current focused into shape by the outer circle which is the magnetic field. This is the basic principle of particle accelerators. The magnetic outer sheath is known as a torus. A Birkeland current is just a particle accelerator stretched out and connected to stellar objects. The current stream is of such magnitude it can self generate a magnetic field of sufficient power that it requires no external means to maintain its integrity.
To accelerate one particle it requires a massive man made magnetic torus. When there are billions of electrons in the stream the field is created automatically. And as there are only charged electrons in the stream the current speed is near light.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan wrote:
| I'm not convinced about this. Certainly there are statements about 'quasi' neutrality, but by this I think they mean groups of + and - which, over the whole plasma, balance to zero. Otherwise, what does plasma mean? |
This is not so. The standard theory is that charge separation does not take place in space. The particles we observe now in space according to orthodoxy are electrically neutral. This is the same orthodoxy that believed and was telling the world that space is EMPTY of particle and a total vacuum. When it was finally realised that that space wasn't empty they had to come up with a new answer. As electricity has no place in standard cosmology all the particles we now observe must be neutral.
But they have been caught out lying by their own tools. The Chandra X-ray telescope has revealed that in an active spiral galaxy named NGC 4458 the following elements have mysteriously suffered charge separation
Magnesium with all 12 of its electrons missing
Neon with all 10 electrons missing
Neon with all but 1 electron missing
Oxygen with all 8 of its electrons missing
Oxygen with all but 1 electron missing
Nitrogen with all 7 of its electrons missing
Carbon with all 6 of its electrons missing
This is but one of billions of active galaxies yet to be studied.
Note that the separated particles are negative electrons. As I mentioned earlier electrons are the most common particle separated because of the nature of atoms. It is the nature of electricity to be in equilibrium or in a neutral state. And where charged particles are not in the presence of magnetic fields this is the norm.
Space is predominantly in a neutral state except where strong magnetic fields are present (Birkeland currents). This does not mean all the charged particles have to cancel each other out.
Plasma is a soup of various forms of diffuse matter which exhibit different charges (electrons, protons, neutrinos, ions, and dust). Air is a gas but we don't find groups of oxygen, nitrogen, carbon or helium etc. It's a soup of various forms of more concentrated matter bound into molecules.
Quasi-neutrality means that most of the plasma in space is non reactive and as particles once separated and diffused cannot recombine because the Nuclear forces that binds them together only operates at very close range. Separated particles remain separate unless in the presence of strong magnetic fields.
Where strong magnetic fields are present this diffuse matter is scavenged and focused into what is called a Z-pinch. If you look at the picture of the Birkeland currents the 'V' shaped area where the two currents converge and begin to spiral around each other is where the Z-pinch effect takes place. Surrounding plasma is 'fused' into elements which creates gravity in the object. The more matter fused the more gravity increases. Eventually a huge ball of matter is created which glows from the electric current flowing into it -- a star is born.
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Brian Ambrose
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| The permanent power source at this stage appears to be beyond the visible universe. |
Good. So the universal model is of a giant external voltage source, currents flow in the plasma, and current flow creates the magnetic field. Just like current flow in a wire.
| The nature of all electrical current is to twist in this fashion that is why copper wire is twisted and light filaments are spiral shape. It's more efficient because electricity prefers to travel this way. |
As far as I know, twisted wire is used mainly for mechanical reasons (it's much more resistant to metal fatigue). But you are saying twisted wire is more conductive than a solid wire of the same cross-section? What rate of twist provides the most efficiency?
| When there are billions of electrons in the stream the field is created automatically. And as there are only charged electrons in the stream the current speed is near light. |
This can't be right. What is it about these huge kinetic-energy carrying 'charged electrons' (I thought an electron was by definition negatively charged) that makes them move faster in a conductor than poor old tired 'uncharged' electrons that move along at the rate of my post office queue?
| Where strong magnetic fields are present... |
I thought we had established that it's current that gives rise to the magnetic fields? I hope therefore you mean 'where higher currents are present (presumably in more highly ionised plasma), resulting in strong magnetic fields, diffuse matter is scavenged and focused...'. But I suspect this leads to further questions, such as, in a series circuit the current is the same in its different components - is the z-pinch analogous to an inductor, which effectively magnifies the magnetic field? What is the inductor in a Birkeland current?
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admin
Librarian
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I want some evidence youse guys are actually learning something from these exchanges.
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Brian Ambrose
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| I want some evidence youse guys are actually learning something from these exchanges. |
Ooh, cool! A new feature on the site, periodic tests! OK, I'm ready, ask a question.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| In a conductor, start-up current is inhibited because the changing magnetic field creates a back-emf, once the magnetic field has been established the current flows freely, when the current stops the collapsing magnetic field creates a reverse current. This effect is of course very noticeable in an inductor. |
I think this is where my grey cells run out of horse power. But I think the right-hand rule says as the current in a straight conductor ramps up, the magnetic field grows and in growing creates a forward emf, the way KK said. 'Course, in a resistive conductor, it reaches a steady state.
Switching off a motor (or controlling it by PWM) creates a back emf because the left-hand rule swaps to the right-hand rule while it freewheels. A transformer creates a forward emf, I think, that causes arcing across the switch contacts as they open. But when you switch on and the core is not yet magnetised, the in-rush current is high. I've blown enough trips to know that for sure.
And think of your alternator: with all your gadgets switched on, the engine has to deliver more energy: it must be harder work to turn the alternator when a lot of current is flowing, which can only be a magnetic effect: more current, stronger opposing field.
All of which, from first principles or last principles, just says we need the case laid out carefully... though we will be able to follow it when it is.
| Certainly there are statements about 'quasi' neutrality, but by this I think they mean groups of + and - which, over the whole plasma, balance to zero. Otherwise, what does plasma mean? |
Without charge, it's just a gas. But, to be fair, the way charge differentials or dissociations are created (and disappear) in the material is surely part of plasma physics. (But then, there's nothing special about being diffuse. The diffuse gas only comes into its own in cosmology, if the properties of such a gas turn out to be crucial to the general explanation of the universe.)
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The current within the field is always aligned by the field. Birkeland currents are field aligned currents they were discovered and experimented with by Kristian Birkeland; they are named after him. All currents in space are field aligned. The field is always perpendicular to the flow. |
No, there's still something wrong here. Current and field are 'normally' perpendicular {and E and B fields are perpendicular in transverse EM waves}, but the auroras Birkeland studied occur at the poles coz the solar wind is deflected along the lines of Earth's magnetic field. The current is aligned with the field, not by it. Evidently, Birkeland explained it, but we don't know what that explanation is.
| The Birkeland currents snake through the diffuse particle of space, like long distance high voltage power transmission lines are surrounded by air. |
This still needs clarification. Is it like a mexican wave through a crowd... or a parade moving through a crowd? Does it matter if the streets are deserted while the parade passes through?
| The permanent power source at this stage appears to be beyond the visible universe. |
So, cosmologically speaking, they are unexplained. That isn't necessarily a death-knell, but we do need to know where the Electric Universe stands.
(It's somewhat unfortunate, though, if scalability from the atom to the observable universe is touted as a particularly attractive feature of the theory.)
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The nature of all electrical current is to twist in this fashion... |
I'd rather have an explanation than a bald assertion.
| ...that is why copper wire is twisted and light filaments are spiral shape. |
This still sounds bogus to me. Since when are wire and filaments twisted for the sake of power transmission efficiency?
| But you are saying twisted wire is more conductive than a solid wire of the same cross-section? |
There is a skin effect that makes multistrand conductors more efficient; and the small strands need to be twisted together for strength. I think this is Tesla's doing.
| We see the twisted nature of Birkeland currents in tornados which are electric phenomena. |
What sorts of current and voltage are we talking about? Why do they take so long to discharge? Is any evidence left of electrical discharge on the ground?
| And as there are only charged electrons in the stream the current speed is near light. |
Why not faster?
| Quasi-neutrality means that most of the plasma in space is non reactive |
Isn't that what Brian said?
| particles once separated and diffused cannot recombine because the Nuclear forces that binds them together only operates at very close range. Separated particles remain separate unless in the presence of strong magnetic fields. |
What about the strong Coulomb fields? And why is the majority of the universe still neutral after all this time, if charge separation is very hard to reverse?
| Surrounding plasma is 'fused' into elements which creates gravity in the object. The more matter fused the more gravity increases. |
Please elucidate.
| Eventually a huge ball of matter is created which glows from the electric current flowing into it - a star is born. |
Why is it a ball? Where does the current go next? Why doesn't it glow a little way outside the ball, where the current must still be flowing?
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan wrote:
| No, there's still something wrong here. Current and field are 'normally' perpendicular {and E and B fields are perpendicular in transverse EM waves}, but the auroras Birkeland studied occur at the poles coz the solar wind is deflected along the lines of Earth's magnetic field. The current is aligned with the field, not by it. Evidently, Birkeland explained it, but we don't know what that explanation is. |
Birkeland Currents field lines are not the Earths magnetic field lines. They are separate field lines that stream into the poles from directly above each pole. They are separate from the Earth's magnetic field. The Earth's field lines deflect the Solar Wind around the globe creating the familiar teardrop shape of the magnetosphere. Solar Winds strike the Birkeland currents in space above the poles perpendicular to the flow and are aligned by the field where they stream into the poles. At the poles the Earth's magnetic field lines and the Birkeland currents intermingle which causes the auroras.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan wrote:
| This still needs clarification. Is it like a Mexican wave through a crowd... or a parade moving through a crowd? Does it matter if the streets are deserted while the parade passes through? |
Here is a picture of powerlines.
In space the powerlines are invisible Birkeland currents.
The air around the powerlines is galactic space.
Birkeland currents need no pylons to support them.
They are intergalactic powerlines that connect to all stellar bodies.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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That reminds me, Van Der Graaf Generator's lead singer used to go out with an ex-girlfriend of mine.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan wrote:
I'd rather have an explanation than a bald assertion.
This still sounds bogus to me. Since when are wire and filaments twisted for the sake of power transmission efficiency?
I think this is Tesla's doing. |
This is old school. It was discovered before Tesla that light filaments were more efficient and lasted longer if they were twisted in a spiral instead of a straight line. The twisted strands of all electrical transmission cable have been the norm since then. Tesla utilised an existing principle. There are some small scale applications of straight single core cable, like fuses and some switch gear but the vast majority is twisted cable.
| What sorts of current and voltage are we talking about? Why do they take so long to discharge? Is any evidence left of electrical discharge on the ground? |
At this stage it is unknown because tornadoes are not considered as electrical phenomena -- meteorology being ruled over by astrophysics they are not allowed to be considered as electrical events. So no one has ever checked even though people who have survived being 'run over' by tornadoes have seen flashes of light within the central core (no they weren't electrical flashes from terrestrial devices)
The discovery (by astrophysicists) that tornados were electrical came from observations on another planet -- Mars. It was discovered quite unexpectedly (again, as Mars isn't supposed to have an atmosphere capable of creating weather) that motion pictures taken by the Mars Rover of dust devils were discharging electrically to the ground. Whereupon one NASA scientist remarked 'they look like the dust devils you see in the Arizona desert'.
Funny how the Arizona desert keeps coming up when Mars geography is concerned.
It just happens to be where they trialled the Mars Rover before it was launched. This led to NASA actually doing some basic research by sending a team of scientist to Arizona to observe and collect data on terrestrial dust devils. And guess what they found? Arizona dust devils behave just like Martian ones right down to the electric discharge.
Dust devils are created by the same forces that create tornados but I don't think NASA has made the obvious conclusion. They're still trying to figure out how they happen on Mars. And as meteorology is an Earth Science it's best not to confuse the little dears. They are having enough trouble explaining Global Warming.
The fact that Global Warming is an electrical phenomenon seems to have escaped them as well.
There is no reason that it couldn't be supra-light. The speed of light being an Einsteinian construct.
| What about the strong Coulomb fields? And why is the majority of the universe still neutral after all this time, if charge separation is very hard to reverse? |
As I understand it the Coulomb field is the electric field surrounding charged particles. The Coulomb force exerted by these fields is measured in nano-coulombs or micro-coulombs. At the distance proposed for particles in space (1 metre) this force is inconsequential for like charges and too far away for attraction of opposite charges.
The vast majority of the universe is neutral because all the accumulated matter affected by EM and Gravity comprises only a tiny fraction of the universe as a whole -- less than 1%. The bulk of the universe is isolated from gravitational and electromagnetic forces. From what we see most of the matter has already been gathered up into galaxy clusters, individual galaxies and stellar objects. It is know as the 'Galactic Wall' as it stretches out in only one section of the visible universe like a giant string of street lights.
| Surrounding plasma is 'fused' into elements which creates gravity in the object. The more matter fused the more gravity increases. |
Please elucidate. |
The Z-pinch effect scavenges matter from the surrounding space and focuses it in tight 'knots'. We can see these knots on galaxy's radial spiral arms and sometimes in matter that is ejected axially. They appear like pearls strung together by filaments.
Matter in the presence of these pinches is affected by strong EM field which enables molecules to clump together. The EM field has the ability to distort the atoms -- the electron is unable to completely shield the nucleus and they become dipoles which are attractive. The clumps gather mass and are naturally affected by gravity which increases the process.
More and more matter is accumulated. Particles are recombined with the help of EM and Gravity - Fusion. The magnetic field surrounding the current and the knot initiate and maintain spin as dipole effect is created throughout the entire knot, which now takes on the familiar spherical shape in the presence of gravitational forces.
The new star becomes an anode in the electron stream of the Birkeland current and begins to glow brightly. The filament of the current leading into, and streaming out of, the pinch glow creating the familiar 'hourglass' shape we see in practically all visible nebulas.
Accumulation, fusion, gravity, spherical form, spin and glow discharge are all created in the Z-pinch. All done with bog standard physics - no mysterious theoretical constructs. Just plain everyday use of the four known forces and what we know of their physical effect from observation and experimentation.
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Brian Ambrose
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| But I think the right-hand rule says as the current in a straight conductor ramps up, the magnetic field grows and in growing creates a forward emf, the way KK said. 'Course, in a resistive conductor, it reaches a steady state. |
Nah, I've designed commercial circuits using inductors and the initial current is inhibited, honest. An inductor is the inverse of a capacitor, where the initial current is high and reduces as it charges. For DC, once charged an inductor goes 'shorted', a capacitor goes 'open'.
| There is a skin effect that makes multistrand conductors more efficient; and the small strands need to be twisted together for strength. |
Yes, some claim that the electrons only travel at the skin of the conductor (or even outside the skin, but let's not go there).
| It was discovered before Tesla that light filaments were more efficient and lasted longer if they were twisted in a spiral instead of a straight line. The twisted strands of all electrical transmission cable have been the norm since then. Tesla utilised an existing principle. |
KK, have you got a reference for this?
| There is no reason that it couldn't be supra-light. The speed of light being an Einsteinian construct. |
This is still to neglect the vast amounts of energy involved. What possible reason have you got even for saying that electrons in a plasma travel at near light speed? Again, reference please.
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Brian Ambrose
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From someone else's conversation, I think this helps (my bold):
"VanderL: Is this really true, can we generate magnetic fields simply by heating?
It's not even that hard. Anything that moves electric charge creates an electric current, and any electric current creates a magnetic field. So, drop some charged particles in free fall, in a gravitational field (no electric field), and you have a current that will generate a magnetic field. The basic principle of dynamo theory (http://www.kis.uni-freiburg.de/~mathieu/dynamo.html), discovered well over 50 years ago now, is that rotational or turbulent motion of any electrically conducting fluid will generate a magnetic field. In astrophysical settings it's just this kind of thing that usually happens, a heated or shocked or accelerated plasma will generate magentic fields, without the intervention of a primary electric field. The magnetic field will then induce a secondary electric field, so things are exactly the opposite from what one would expect from the naive point of view." http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-28596-p-2.html
"This is how I understand what the electric model is about:
There are currents flowing through space; they are called Birkeland currents. For a long time space was considered to have an aether, after Einstein space was considered a empty void, now space is known to have particles and should be considered a plasma; exactly this property is where the current theories and the electric model differ. The Standard model needs a power source from the stars that is capable of ionizing atoms, thus explaining how these particles are formed (like the solar wind). In an electric model it happens exactly the other way around; vast expanses of space flowing with electric currents form into Birkeland ropes (helically formed shapes that attract to each other magnetically) that can accumulate matter (charged and neutral as well) into concentrations needed to form stars (called the Z-pinch effect). These concentrations work as a kind of anode to the existing current and electrons flow towards the star, powering the star and the star dissipates the energy outward in an electrical circuit. Plasma self-organizes into double layers, you can find these double layers close to the Sun (corona) and there is one somewhere outside Pluto's orbit (also known as the Sun's magnetosphere or heliosphere). These double layers are the boundaries where the electrical charge is exchanged. Every star will have these features, but depending on the amount of current (current density) in the vicinity of the star and it;s mass, the star will behave differently. Like an electric circuit a star will have it's own "frequency" to dissipate energy, some stars have a low frequency (our Sun's frequency seems to be eleven years). When the density is low, there almost no discharge and the star will look like (is) a brown dwarf. Higher densities will make the plasma glow and all the known normal stars can be found, when the density is even higher, the star will have trouble to accomodate the charge and will start to behave differently. It can "fission" and thus creating a larger surface which will lead to the formation of planets or, when the stress is higher, a nova resulting in a new star and so on. There's whole lot more but this post is long enough already."
"I gather that the poles of the Sun are the point where the electrons enter (I have to check this) and the equator is where the + ions are released (net positive charge, so overall the charges are +, but negative charges can also exist)."
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Brian wrote:
| This is still to neglect the vast amounts of energy involved. What possible reason have you got even for saying that electrons in a plasma travel at near light speed? Again, reference please. |
The electrons are travelling within the sheath of a magnetic aligned field (Birkeland Current). The electrons in the current stream are isolated from the surrounding plasma. Inside the BC electrons flow; outside the BC neutral plasma/space.
How fast can particles be accelerated in a particle accelerator -- near light.
Birkeland Currents are particle accelerators in space that do not require a huge magnetic torus to contain and accelerate the electrons. With billions of electrons in the current stream the containing 'torus' is self-generating.
Terrestrial accelerators require a massive man-made torus because they are only accelerating 'single' particles.
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