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Varsity Blues (NEW CONCEPTS)
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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I don't want to stop the flow of Bernie's argument. But N8 reckons that historically how you tax your honest toilers is quite often as important as how much you tax your honest toilers. (within reason)

I think a certain Margaret Thatcher learnt this, the hard way.

So far we have a lot of good arguments for European taxes on sales, you could also add in the traditional right wing argument that taxes on income are a tax on success, productivity and the rest.

Yet the US has never developed a nationwide sales tax...... favouring a progressive tax on income....the higher you earn the more you pay....corruption might explain part of this, but does it explain all of this?

Anyway all this has taken my mind off Salma Hayak.
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berniegreen



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N8, mate, I have some bad news for you. Intrigued by your thought about the US implementing a "socialist" progressive income tax as opposed to Europeans I did a bit of researching and found that all income taxes everywhere in developed countries have always been implemented with progressive sliding scale rates. Whether that applies absolutely universally I haven't been able to determine but it is certainly the case with all countries that "matter".

Even the very first personal income tax (1799 in Britain) had two rates and a tax threshold. Up to £60 pa you paid nothing. From £60 to £200 you paid 5%, and above £200 you paid 10%. Proper graduated rates as we know them today plus "allowances" (the first was a child allowance) were introduced in 1910.

The original attempt to introduce a federal income tax in the US was declared unconstitutional by the supreme court and it wasn't until after the passing of the 16th amendment to the constitution in 1913 that a federal income tax was commenced.

Sweden, BTW, introduced income tax in 1910 and Norway in 1892. Strangely Italy was the first country in continental Europe with income tax (1864) but, in typical Italian fashion it was never fully and universally implemented till 1913.

So far as I can tell from my research so far it appears that the underlying reason behind this universal implementation of progressive systems for personal taxation is the general acceptance of the principle of proportionality. Although, interestingly, the notion of proportionality has never been argued for company taxation even though a company is treated in law as though it is a person in most other respects.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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It is not (quite) as simple as ..does a country have an income or a sales tax?


The question is does the level of progressive income taxation, versus the level of regressive, stealth sales taxation, influence perceptions to tax and welfare..?

The US tax system in this respect is progressive, without a national sales tax. It certainly was never socialist, (you could not compare it with for example, post revolution Cuba, or let's say Nicaragua, for instance where for example everyone was shoehorned into 4 income bands... err that was it... before they moved to 10 bands...and so on )
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berniegreen



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A very interesting thought, N8 and a topic that I haven't seen covered in the research that I have done so far. I guess that one can just speculate but to get some data on which to try to develop any realistic theory would require a great deal of surveying and interviewing.

Just for starters, did UK attitudes change following the introduction of VAT? And is the impending rise to 20% in January going to make people switch to preferring income based taxes over consumption based taxes?

And in the US there are so many different combinations of Federal income tax PLUS state income tax Plus state sales tax or Plus sales tax and no state income tax or PLUS state income tax and no sales tax - all at varying rates.

If you were looking for a topic for a doctoral thesis, N8, you could well have found it!

For the moment, Merry Christmas. Back again after the hangover.
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Angus McOatup


In: England
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Having dropped out of a real uni some years ago, and then faced some totally p### poor jobs I am now in my final year of an open university degree pursuing Art History. Which apart from all the relentless political correctness/Identity politics is ok. I can generally recommend the OU if you have the dosh, because as a by-product, doing any O.U course gives you free access to the OU online Library Resource, which contains tens of thousands of the world's ...(sorry to say this).... peer reviewed academic periodicals. So looking something up on any subject whatsoever is a lot more fruitful than having to depend on Wikipedia (good as it is) e.g. it has every archaeology, history, science, geology, art, etc journal going...so excellent for all us AE'rs to do research with...in our own unique way of course !.....P.s O.U courses are free if your household income is below £25, 000. So very much worth checking out....
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Welcome, Angus, even if you are talking treason.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hi Angus;

A colleague and I have something very special we are working on related to Art History. I should put him in touch with you.
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Angus McOatup


In: England
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Sorry Mick,
I'm a massive fan actually, and seem to have read most of the stuff you've read from Hamlets Mill to David Miles' Tribes of Britain'...and Stephen Oppenheimer's stuff. (When I was doing a uni archaeology course a few years ago I related the THOBR case to a history don and he thought it was 'very suggestive'...ie he didn't or couldn't poo-poo it)...The OU digital archive is great for Archaeology BTW with magazines such as British/World Archaeology etc and a zillion other humanity papers...oh and most British periodicals from the early 18th onwards....
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Angus McOatup


In: England
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Ishmael wrote:
Hi Angus;

A colleague and I have something very special we are working on related to Art History. I should put him in touch with you.


Yes please do Ish....reappearing statues perchance ? I'm just about fully loaded with current academic art historical theory from the Renaissance, Romanticism, Neoclassicism, Impressionism etc. to the present (the renaissance wins hands down over the garbage of the present IMHO).

Best Regards .....I'll check to see if my email is on my inbox thingy
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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We have something that will blow your mind. :->
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Angus McOatup


In: England
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We have something that will blow your mind. :->

Sounds great...hopefully it will take my mind off the post-modernist garbage I'm studying at the present....
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Angus, when you want to quote somebody, just highlight the passage and then press quote. If you are in difficulties, send me a message and we will work it out.

PS Don't hold your breath re Ishmael. He promises us major revelations twice a week but they actually get delivered about twice a year. Which is twice a year more than most people on this forum so we put up with his bombast.
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Angus McOatup


In: England
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Mick Harper wrote:
Angus, when you want to quote somebody, just highlight the passage and then press quote. If you are in difficulties, send me a message and we will work it out.

PS Don't hold your breath re Ishmael. He promises us major revelations twice a week but they actually get delivered about twice a year. Which is twice a year more than most people on this forum so we put up with his bombast.


Thanks Mick, will do....

I'll try to think up something brilliant pretty soon....I was thinking of going for 'planetary terraforming'...but maybe that a bit ambitious just yet?
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Mick is our resident I.T. guru.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Chad is our resident ironist.
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