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Questions Of The Day (Politics)
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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We would do better to give up, and go after the Traffickers.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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I regard the traffickers as entirely blameless. Not that there is such an entity.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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I did too, until the Irish truck driver discovered the dead Vietnamese in the back of his lorry. Then the astonishing truth was uncovered, that part of the problem was systemic and criminal, bit similar to smuggling in drugs.

The day to day problem is that the police think it's a borders problem, borders the police, so when a 25 year old jumps out of lorry claiming to be 17 they call Social Care.
.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Let's get it straight and you can't have it both ways. If it is 'legitimate' for people to wish to better themselves by relocating to Britain from their own country, then it must be 'legitimate' for people to facilitate their journey. It can't be done otherwise. Nobody is 'trafficking' anybody, it is simply people providing a service to customers.

The Vietnamese case is no different. The deaths were entirely unsought -- indeed disastrous for the traffickers too. It was only perilous at all because the British state made it so. And your comparison with drug-smugglers is quite apposite. The only difference between my neighbourhood crack supplier and Boots the Chemist is that one is supplying illegal drugs and the other legal ones. But that depends on how you regard the product. What about a pharmacy handing out prescription opiates too freely? What about the Black Railroad spiriting slaves from the American South to freedom in the north? That becomes glorious but only because we now approve of the activity. It was illegal at the time.

No, sorry, anyone that takes up the populist cry of 'cracking down on the evil merchants of death trading in human misery' is barking up entirely the wrong tree. Though it would be better if Medecins sans Frontieres took over the trade.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:
Let's get it straight and you can't have it both ways. If it is 'legitimate' for people to wish to better themselves by relocating to Britain from their own country, then it must be 'legitimate' for people to facilitate their journey.


I didn't say it was legitimate. To enter Britain under "Free Movement" was legitimate (it's not now), to enter under the newer "Points based sytem" will be legitimate, to enter as an economic migrant (if not fleeing persecution), but claiming to be refugee, is not. Neither is entering as a student or a tourist and overstaying.

If you had a Vietnamese student who had gone to Imperial College, got a degree, was popular with his fellow students and wanted to stay in Britain, but had been stupid enough to take a degree in Archaeology rather than medicine, they would not be allowed to stay. There is not much of a demand for Archaeologists so he gets turned down under the points sytem. What happens if he overstays? It is highly unlikely our student will ever be deported, not least because, if Borders or the police actaully mananged to track him down, under the current sytem he will claim asylum, and that's a good few many years before that will be sorted, so the process is taking for ever.

You might think, aha, that at the point of him claiming asylum we will now send him to Rwanda.

Good luck with that, he will have either disappeared again, or you will have a 400 person luvvy petition saying what a nice bloke he is (he probably is) and shouldn't you really be concentrating on getting out the country the really bad foreign nationals in our prisons (you probaly should)

The public will be against you either deporting or sending our student to Rwanda. BTW his solicitor will be pointing out that his girlfriend is now pregnant and you are deporting the unborn child's father, you are denying a child of his father, which in fact you will be.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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I am truly amazed you think trying some new sticking plaster, very similar to the old sticking plater, will do the job. But you have smoked me out so I'll set down my principles.

1. Abolish all distinctions between the various categories of migrants. This will require us (the UK) abrogating all the treaties we have entered into on the subject. Tell the world the current categories are not only completely unworkable, the UK is in a unique position, so we shall be making our own unique dispositions.

2. Whenever a special situation arises e.g. Ugandan Asians, Hong Kong Chinese, displaced Ukrainians, we shall make our own ad hoc arrangements deploying our own unique blend of compassion and selfishness.

3. But basically nobody gets in unless they are invited in. Anybody turning up on spec goes straight off to Rwanda (or wherever).

4. Who does get invited -- because for sure we will always be needing one a hell of a lot of migrants -- will be based on strict criteria that does not include any reference to ideologies. Just 'who's available' and 'if your face fits'.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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It's innovative, but it's going to make checking the 150 million passenger arrivals each year difficult. How big is the camp in Rwanda?
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Apples and pears. We have a sophisticated system for dealing with people arriving in the usual way. As I understand it, the airlines are responsible, at their own expense, for returning people lacking the necessary permissions to their point of origin.

Of course, plenty of people arrive legally and become 'illegals' while they are here but if that becomes our only 'migrant problem' we won't have much to worry about. Not that we have much to worry about anyway in my view. It's just that people do worry, and that worries me.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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It's borders (whatever they are called) who have the responsibility for returns, if the bloke says he cant return safely as he will be persecuted.


Mick Harper wrote:
Of course, plenty of people arrive legally and become 'illegals' while they are here but if that becomes our only 'migrant problem' we won't have much to worry about.

The answer is nobody knows these numbers, some have put it at 1 million plus in the country. We don't know because we notify lots of people to leave and hope they do, or maybe we don't care if they don't.

The asylum figure goes up and down. It's clearly more an issue now, not just as the numbers are rising but also because the sea route is so dangerous.

House of Commons Library wrote:
The annual number of asylum applications to the UK peaked in 2002 at 84,132. After that the number fell sharply to reach a twenty-year low point of 17,916 in 2010. It rose steadily again throughout the 2010s and then sharply in 2021, to 48,540, which was the highest annual number since 2003.

Free movement resulted in about 4.9 million getting settled status. That's about 50-100 years' worth of asylum seekers, even if we accepted every single one. Have I got the math wrong, that is astounding to me?
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Study in UK is popular, well over 150,000 students each year from outside EU alone, so I imagine that is why you get the talk of bogus colleges. Haven't looked at that, but some rogues and scoundrels might be using these as a cunning way of getting folks in.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Part of the problem could be numbers of asylum applications go up, if you block off other routes, ie make getting a work visa tougher.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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The answer is nobody knows these numbers, some have put it at 1 million plus in the country. We don't know because we notify lots of people to leave and hope they do, or maybe we don't care if they don't.

Exactly! I keep telling you over and over again you keep treating this as a real problem that requires solving. It isn't. As long as nobody knows, nobody cares. The population of Britain might be 100 million. It could certainly support a hundred million without breaking sweat.

The only 'problem' we have to solve is the one of perception. And this is real! People get upset at seeing strangers (and I'm talking about strangers that don't look like them) landing on the beach or hanging around in city centres or appearing on the telly making a mockery of the justice system. The people are entitled to get upset, it's their country. That's why I support Priti Patel-style solutions. That's the problem she's trying to solve. Not five million over-staying Indians working quietly as accountants.

The only question that remains is whether you are prepared to tolerate a few people that deserve our succour but won't be getting it. Once word gets out, even those people will simply apply for asylum or refugees status (or whatever it is) in one of the dozens of countries that operate sub-Priti systems.

PS Oh yes. And plus the shrieking of liberals from home and abroad.
PPS My God! Suppose they mount a coup. Hold up, Wiley, what was your solution again...
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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What do Sergey Protosenya, Vladislav Avaev, Vasily Melnikov, Mikhail Watford, Alexander Tyulyakov, Leonid Shulman have in common?

They all committed suicide since the latest troubles between Ukraine and Russia started and they are all oligarchs.

1) A coincidence.
2) The sanctions are stressing them.
3) Putin is eliminating them.

The first three, the wife and children died as well, maybe killed by the oligarch, or by whoever killed the oligarch ?

https://www.newsweek.com/every-russian-oligarch-who-has-died-since-putin-invaded-ukraine-full-list-1700022
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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What seems clear is that, as with the novichock poisonings, Putin is being so blatant he must be sending a signal. As with the novichock it is not the western powers being signalled, he has obviously written them off years ago, but the wider category of the poisonees. With novichock it was traitors, political opponents and an anti-Russian Ukrainian presidential candidate. With the hangings (which go back some years, it's not just the current crop) it is émigré oligarchs.

The why is presumably to disencourager les autres but what is odd about the hangings is that they are so well done. With the poisonings Putin clearly either didn't care or positively wanted his presiding hand to be discovered behind them. Not, it seems, with the hangings. Perhaps he has outsourced the job to the Vatican mafiosi responsible for 'Blackfriars' but I've already said too much.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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It seems to Wiley that Putin might have been poisoned, if he has a nervous disease like MS it has got worse rapidly. He is constantly biting his lip, hanging onto furniture, his eyes look weird, staged conferences, slurring.

No, according to Wiley's Kremlin watchers, he and Sergey Shoigu have both been poisoned. That explains all the dead oligarchs they are also wiping out Putin's allies.
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