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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I can't see why the Ukrainian war is different to any other.
There are camps in Poland at the present time, the great majority of Ukrainiains are hoping to return, or already returning, but if the war swings in favour towards Russia and there is stalemate, people will not want to stay in the camps forever. The Red Cross will be working and supporting people in the camp. Eventually Britain will agree to take a number of Refugees direct from the camps, the application will be made with the assistance and support of the Red Cross, which is helpful to us, during that time the refugees will consider their options. Some will take the option of making the refugee application and travel to Britain with Red Cross assistance, others won't.
How is this any different to any other war?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I can't see why the Ukrainian war is different to any other. |
One difference is that it is the only war in the whole of human history about which we don't how or when it ended.
| There are camps in Poland at the present time, the great majority of Ukrainiains are hoping to return, or already returning, but if the war swings in favour towards Russia and there is stalemate, people will not want to stay in the camps forever. |
Wiley, the war has only been going for a few weeks, how can there be 'camps' in the ordinary sense?
| The Red Cross will be working and supporting people in the camp. |
I would imagine the local chapter are handing round jam sandwiches, yes. But these are more in the nature of evacuees. They're simply not refugees in the normal sense. It's more church halls, people's homes, requisitioned hotels out of season. But sure, Moldova already can't cope so maybe there are camps there.
| Eventually Britain will agree to take a number of Refugees direct from the camps, the application will be made with the assistance and support of the Red Cross, which is helpful to us, during that time the refugees will consider their options. Some will take the option of making the refugee application and travel to Britain with Red Cross assistance, others won't. |
Yes, if the war goes on for a bit, I imagine this will be so.
| How is this any different to any other war? |
It's between two European countries. That hasn't happened since 1945. Ukrainians can come to Britain as per Poles that I mentioned above. Nobody will even notice them.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| You can be as charitable as you like (and I hope you are charitable as I am) |
I am not really in favour of charity although I have a DD to Medicins Sans Frontier as the French are loopy enough to go into zones where others won't. This idealistic willingness to kill themseves to save others I find commendable.
The question is really one for Government, who should we be helping?
I am more than happy to help refugees as I believe that sometimes wars are needed, if I was a pacifist, or believed in neutrality, then not helping seems more than reasonable. But given we are not under Corbyn yet and we continue to engage in wars, sell arms etc, I reckon we should do our bit.
I am less keen on economic migrants claiming to be refugees. I would probaly be quite mean to them. I wouldn't immediately deport them or take away their benefits, or deny them health care or housing, like the govt however.
Instead I would give them a leave to remain that allowed them to stay, but not to bring in relatives, not allow them to access further education or own a company, or take any professional job, or own a house. They should not be allowed back in the country if they travelled out.
Britain is going to need more low paid workers in the future, they should be encouraged to take this opportunity of remaining and filling our need for low paid workers, now we have Brexited.
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Grant
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There are no camps for Ukrainian refugees because 99% of those fleeing are going to their relatives who live in other countries because the Ukrainian economy has been in free fall for the last ten years. I’d be happy for us to take as many as possible, especially the beautiful 25 year olds who constantly send me social media messages asking if I want a young Ukrainian wife.
The answer is yes, but my missus is opposed
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I am not really in favour of charity although I have a DD to Medicins Sans Frontier as the French are loopy enough to go into zones where others won't. This idealistic willingness to kill themseves to save others I find commendable. |
The question you should be asking yourself is not whether they are killing themselves but whether they are killing others. I would abolish them tomorrow.
| I am more than happy to help refugees as I believe that sometimes wars are needed, if I was a pacifist or believed in neutrality, then not helping seems more than reasonable. But given we are not under Corbyn yet and we continue to engage in wars, sell arms etc, I reckon we should do our bit. |
This is completely loopy. Helping unfortunates is not conditional on any of the above.
| I am less keen on economic migrants claiming to be refugees. |
You haven't told us a) what's the difference and b) if there's a difference, how you tell them apart.
| I would probaly be quite mean to them. I wouldn't immediately deport them or take away their benefits, or deny them health care or housing, like the govt however. |
This is the position as it is now. You should get used to having large numbers of economic migrants
| Instead I would give them a leave to remain that allowed them to stay but not to bring in relatives, not allow them to access further education, or own a company, or take any professional job, or own a house. They should not be allowed back in the country if they travelled out. |
All this is current policy. Such micromanagement is completely futile because all migrants disappear into the workforce. Fifty years of mass immigration has taught us that much at least. Haven't you noticed? Every year they're cracking down on something or other.
| Britain is going to need more low paid workers in the future, they should be encouraged to take this opportunity of remaining and filling our need for low paid workers, now we have Brexited. |
Blimey, Wiley, you do go round the houses to arrive at where we are. But are you prepared to grasp the nettle and operate a racist immigration policy i.e. bring in people the Brits want? Not what you and I want, we're comfortably sealed off from it all.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: |
You haven't told us a) what's the difference and b) if there's a difference, how you tell them apart. |
I would continue as now, they submit an asylum application. It's either determined or not according to whether the application and investigation can demonstrate they are at risk of persecution.
| Mick Harper wrote: |
This is the position as it is now. |
No it's not, if the government currently finds the applicant isn't a refugee they are denied help with housing, benefits, can face deportation, etc. No, we are not denying them the basics, we are not total bastards, we are denying them something far worse: the ability to become middle class.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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The problem for the decision maker on an asylum application is that it is either a golden ticket, or a draconian we will evict you from your home, deny you benefits, contact the internal team and the police to detain and deport you.
So what do you do if you think you have an economic migrant but are a tad unsure?
Almost certainly the first decision maker is going to refuse.
Almost certainly the applicant will appeal, to have a second crack and keep being housed. It's now getting serious for the second decision maker....... he or she is 95% sure he is looking at an economic migrant.
The answer is surely to allow the decision maker to award something.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Why does the UK get high numbers of initial applications turned down and then overturned on appeal? If the appeal is turned down, you will then get appeals against deportation and so on and so on, you get then a media and luvvie campaign.
It's the spectacle of an all or nothing, two result game.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I would continue as now, they submit an asylum application. It's either determined or not according to whether the application and investigation can demonstrate they are at risk of persecution. |
You really haven't grasped the problem at all, Wiley. Who is 'they'? They is everyone. Do yo suppose anybody says, "You've got me bang to rights, chief, I'm an illegal. Here's my passport so you know I'm over eighteen and where to send me back to." Nope. They are asylum-seekers or refugees or whatever it is at the time and join the five-year queue or whatever it is.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | I would continue as now, they submit an asylum application. It's either determined or not according to whether the application and investigation can demonstrate they are at risk of persecution. |
You really haven't grasped the problem at all, Wiley. Who is 'they'? They is everyone. Do yo suppose anybody says, "You've got me bang to rights, chief, I'm an illegal. Here's my passport so you know I'm over eighteen and where to send me back to." Nope. They are asylum-seekers or refugees or whatever it is at the time and join the five-year queue or whatever it is. |
We have dealt with the problem.
We allow applications from those claiming to seek asylum, we strongly suspect that many are from economic migrants who should be applying to come to Britain on the basis they want to work, but they are not willing to go through the points based system as they would have to do this outside the country, and both they and we know they will rightly fail as they are not skilled enough.
Rather than have a binary you are an asylum seeker/you are not (you are not entitled to stay here, claim benefits claim, help with housing or healthcare), we now have a third category that reflects who they actually are, we call it for what it is, the failed asylum seeker, Econonic Migrant category. (We will allow them to stay, claim benefits, receive NHS care and help with housing, we are encouraging them to take up low paid jobs, but denying them, further education, owning a house, owning a business, we are refusing them permission to bring over, sponsor relatives).
What you will see is a rapid decrease of numbers of those accepted as refugees and a rapid increase in those given the lesser "permission to remain" as economic migrants. (because, as we all instinctively know, this is the reality of the situation)
You will have speedier decisions, less appeals, lesss luvvie campaigns, less deportations, better working between Borders and the Police, because neither police or borders want to deport anybody other than your murderers and rapists currently languishing in British jails, or on the run in Britain from their own country. (let them get on with that difficult job). We start to rebuild working relationships with the French Police and borders, by not blaming or criticising them.
By now we fully expect to be hated by Daily Mail readers for being too soft and the Guardian for creating a new category of second class citizens.
We explain politely that is exactly we are doing, we are drawing a distinction between "Citizens" and Economic Migrants who have entered unlawfully and we fully intend to keep on giving these Economic Migrants people a right to remain, and elibility for benefits, health and so on, and no, they will not be deported. Whatever we do, we do not try to show we are tougher or more liberal on migration, or criticise Borders, The police, The prisons, The French, or claim we have a Grand Simple Plan.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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We have got swifter decisions, and we have established that your ecomic migrants unless they are a real risk to the public will not be deported, they will be looked after in terms of any stuff that would breach their human rights, solicitors are gnashing their teeth.
We have also got rising numbers of applicants.
We explain that is a good thing.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I'm giving up. You really seem to think it's a problem of bureaucracy. Though of course whatever the problem is, it is affecting every bureaucracy in the developed world.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Of course it's a problem of boring administration, because you have huge resources already to address and solve the problem. We are just not using them well, we are criticising the decision takers, borders, police, the French and so on.
We can stop most if not all future migrants if we get the migrants to turn against the traffickers, you won't deter or be able to work with them if your policy is to send them to Rwanda.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I am sure Rwanda is a good place to live or go for a holiday, but the type of question that will arrive in the British Courts is something like why are we sending/have sent a vulnerable asylum seeker who was gassed or raped to go to a country with a health service that was not free at the point of use, why are we doing this to someone who actually required a lot of care. It will be that type of case as the solicitor will not be selecting a economic migrant who was fit and healthy. They will be looking for someone who is sick.
You have guessed it, breach of human rights flown back to Britain, national outrage, precedent set.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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So Britain will be screening migrants before they go to Rwanda, and mysteriously those suffering from PTSD will shoot up when this is known.
That is going to be one expert with one opinion, and the other against, and a rapidly growing body of case law on how ill you have to be.
Why do we do this?
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