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Questions Of The Day (Politics)
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Let's get a coupla things clear. People trying to break into a stadium to see an important match is not hooliganism, it's opportunism. We've all been opportunists in our time so let's have fewer pots and kettles. Now for the racist abuse of black penalty takers:

1. It was clearly stated that 'most' of the abuse came from abroad
2. The numbers seemed to vary between hundreds and thousands.
3. I trust that it was racist abuse and not abuse directed at players who happen to be black. You play professional sport, you get abused. That's the deal. Between you and us.

Now what is 'racist' in this context? If you think about it for about five seconds, abusing someone is not an easy business. "You crummy penalty-taker." It lacks something, n'est-ce pas? It does because that's called criticism. It could even be considered constructive criticism. You are obliged to seek a handle if you want to abuse. As I used in a post just yesterday, "You crummy penalty-taker, you scouse git." Actually I felt a little uneasy about that (it was directed at John Lennon and not for penalty-taking, apart from Yoko), not because it was 'racist' but because it was directed at a (dead) national treasure. But that's why I went ahead anyway. I'm pretty hard core like that.

Now we get to "You scotch git" and finally "you black git". One ratchet up, scotch bastard and black bastard. Are we really dealing with racism? Or paucity of epithet? It really is difficult to pin an appropriate tail on such a sweet pair of Rocinantes as Saka and Rashford. But if we have to send them back to their own countries, so be it.
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Grant



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Truly disgraceful how the media has taken a great national moment and added pretend racism to try to shame the English people. Let’s do some math.

There are fifty million English people. Apparently Facebook have had to remove a thousand tweets which were - so we are told - racist. So what?

If you ask fifty million people for their views some will be racist, some will be flat earthers, some will think Hitler was a great man. It tells us nothing except to never listen to journalists who pretend that a nasty tweet means anything at all in the scheme of things.

As for Rashford, if you try to take a smart-arse penalty involving a weird run-up and you miss, don’t be surprised that someone’s going to be rude to you on social media.
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Grant



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Interesting that all the darlings of the media have been found wanting on this sad day:

Sterling - went hiding when asked to take a penalty
Kane - disappointed as always against quality opposition
Rashford - arrogant idiot to try something clever at such a crucial moment
Southgate - ex Middlesbrough reject shows low levels of tactical understanding, and what he did to poor Saka is incredible

Those with hearts of oak were Trippier and Shaw, who looked like the English bowmen at Agincourt.

Oh dear, I’m going to have to have a lie down and listen to a Nigel Farage podcast
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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You have at least demonstrated how difficult being abusive is. I disagreed with all your points apart from the last one. Also you have perpetrated the 'bogus list' error since Trippier and Shaw have clearly been singled out for their whiteness (and chunkiness). Leaving aside that on another thread we are lining Agincourt up for the reject pile. [I say more about this on the Sport thread.]

However you are dead right in singling out Aunt Sally Preservation Society syndrome as a major pre-occupation of the media, people etc.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Trippier and Shaw have clearly been singled out for their whiteness...

This raises an interesting point. How much dilution does there need to be before a player is no longer considered black? Is it based purely on skin tone? Saka, Rashford and Sancho, though different shades, are all considered black... but what about Phillips?

Trippier is a good example. His mum is white and his dad is somewhere between Rashford and Sancho on the colour scale. They have four sons, the eldest (Chris) would be regarded as black (if he was playing for England) yet the youngest (Kieran) seems to be regarded as white. (Their other two lie somewhere between Chis and Kieran, in terms of skin tone.)

And what about Giggs? (Ratio 75:25)
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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This is worth going into here politically even though we have skated across it in Sport. The general rule is the "touch of the tarbrush" test i.e. if your black ancestry is visible, you're black; if not, you're white. End of. As a quick anecdotal introduction I might cite John Conteh. I was having an argy with some (black) hospital porters who listed Conteh as one of theirs without reflection. "Not so," said the Deputy Head Night Porter of a leading London Teaching Hospital and a noted pedant, "West Indian father, Scottish mother. The Scottish mother would have no black but the West Indian father is certain to have some white, QED Conteh is white. Now is anyone going to fetch the Cardiac Arrest trolley or is someone going to die trying?"

The fact that Conteh's mother is actually Irish (not Black Irish, which is something different) and his father from Sierra Leone (i.e. all black) was not allowed to spoil the argument. He was from Toxteth so not even British for chrissake. More momentarily. My bathroom's been flooded. As was the whole of W11 and W9 last night which is why I am writing this in a state of disgusting grunginess I haven't experienced since yesterday.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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I was once given a bit of a hiding, by a kid in the year above me at school, for merely suggesting that some of his facial features were rather negroid in appearance (I think the term I used was white nigger). His counterpart today would be strutting around embracing his ambiguous ethnicity.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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He's gone for the vacuum pump. Coal black by the way but completely West Indian in terms of general mien i.e chatting on his mobile to his mate while analysing the problem, communicating with me etc. Maybe this is now true of his white British cohort (early twenties) but no other culture on earth would do this. (Write in.) Fairly cavalier attitude to my property but he works for a housing trust so this may be endemic. Socialist plumbing, as Ishmael would call it.

Got the job done with dispatch and went the extra mile in terms of testing and exploring 'what should be done now?' Nothing, we agreed. We both knew that getting the bureaucracy involved is always a bad idea. Completely affable but here's the USP: treated me throughout as a kind of watermelon-chomping pickaninny. West Indian (males) have acquired the sense of infinite superiority of Iranian, Polish, British public school men and Chinese, men and women. And cats (all breeds). There, enough racism for you?
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Mick Harper
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There you go, it's another Ryan Giggs moment. I had assumed the Trippiers, like the Giggses, could trace their ancestry on both sides back at least as far as Hereward the Wake. But now we get to the real nitty. First generation white British/black(ish) immigrant crosses produce an endless supply of excellent but ugly footballers. We shall not see their like until ... well, actually it's an endless supply so long as the white British continue to be a) reasonably tolerant and b) rubbish in bed. Come on, you British grenadiers, keep up those visits to the potting shed and the porn mags. Their patron saint is not so much Gareth Southgate (though he could audition for the part) as David Pleat.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Come on, you British grenadiers, keep up...

We all know (in reality) the vast majority of mixed couplings involve white females with black males, but the norm on TV (particularly in advertising) is rapidly becoming the happy, middle class, mixed race family, with a white dad and black mum.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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The full reality was laid bare top and tailed on Newsnight, starting with

Tyrone Mings (re Priti Patel) You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as 'Gesture Politics' and then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens.

As everyone here knows, I think the sun shines out of the Mings bottom and I want to shove Priti up it, but I have to be fair minded and remind Tyrone that Priti is essentially saying that taking the knee is stoking racism. She may be wrong but it's a respectable position (and not just because that's what I believe too). But equally I have to remind La Patello that if she wants to play to her base there are probably better ways and times to do it than taking on the entire England team on the eve of their biggest tournament since the pig-sticking durbar of ’08 (Subaltern Select XI 156 Tuskers 3). And ending with

Joel Beya (black Radio 5 commentator): I remember a few years ago being outside the (Man) City stadium being abused... eventually City identified the individual but the ban wasn’t enough, to be honest with you.

This is a sub-routine of the AE Bogus List: "If this is the worst you can come up with, the rest can't be terribly bad.”
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Mick Harper
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How is the defacement of the Marcus Rashford mural racist? It is ostensibly the response of somebody whose ire was provoked by Rashford missing a penalty. This may be criticised, even prosecuted, on various grounds from vandalism to breach of the peace to discouraging spontaneous street art, but there is nothing inherently racist in the act. Unless the defacement was itself racist. That would mean, say, a racial slur was scrawled across Marcus's face or whatever. Here's where AE steps in.

How do we know this didn't happen? I'll give the answer tomorrow unless somebody beats me to it. [Or shows I'm a complete ninny by producing evidence that that was precisely what did happen.]
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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If the graffiti had been racist, you can be sure the media would have emphasised the fact. They simply conflated the defacing of the mural with the racial abuse he suffered on-line, leaving everybody to assume the subject matter was the same in both instances.

(The graffiti actually consisted of a comedy penis and a few offensive sexual references.)
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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The defacement seems to have been a hat and full beard painted onto the mural. Clearly intended to make Rashford look like a mullah.

The beard was quickly covered with notes which is what the news channels showed (I saw the 'original' on Twitter but I expect it's been removed by now).
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Sorry Hats, don't know what you saw on twitter (probably a mock up) but there was definitely no hat (they would have needed a pretty longish ladder for that) or beard. There was a penis ejaculating in his face, "FUCK SANCHO" was easy to make out and (less clear) was what I think read "SHIT IN ARSE BASTARD". Not nice but not racist.

Just a couple of stupid Man City fans... No big deal.
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