| View previous topic :: View next topic |
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
 |
|
| So they're rushing into the Labour Party in the hope that it'll become a pro-EU centrist party capable of winning power. |
It's an ingenious theory but it doesn't ring true. People don't 'rush in their hundreds of thousands' to join a party which they could have joined at any time. After all the Labour Party has always been 'a pro-EU centrist party capable of winning power', so where were they all that time?
But you raise an interesting point: is the EU dead for all practical purposes (except for Scotch/Irish hillbillies)? And even if it is, is this newly unveiled rift between downtrodden northern ex-Brexiteers and prancing metro ex-Remainers here to stay? And if it is, is this (as you say) a newly politically-conscious avant garde looking to colonise its new natural home in the Labour Party? But if so, it would be (as I say) something new in the firmament. Rather promising. Good grief, there might even be some new policy initiatives. Wouldn't that be a novelty from the left wing party?
|
|
 |
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
| Presumably you saw Newsnight? They went to a constituency where 180 new members had joined in the last few weeks. But there were only about twenty people at the meeting and they fitted into a modest room. |
The nub. These twenty-five-pound johnnies will vote for the leader but they won't do the hard yards when it comes to selecting parliamentary candidates. You realise what this means? After several years of a left-wing leader battling with right-wing MP's, we'll now have several years of a right-wing leader battling with left-wing MP's. Can't wait.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
N R Scott
In: Middlesbrough
|
|
|
|
| Mick Harper wrote: | | After all the Labour Party has always been 'a pro-EU centrist party capable of winning power', so where were they all that time? |
Pre-Corbyn and Brexit they didn't have to actively engage in politics to have their views represented because they had three parties to choose from at elections that were all centrist and all taking the same position on Europe. Now they don't have that luxury they've realised they have to get actively involved.
Plus, a lot of these people have only been politically radicalised in the last three or four years. We now have a class of people in Britain who in 2015 never owned an EU flag. Would've struggled to name a single EU politician, and if asked would've probably described the EU as a trading bloc with baubles. Who now, in 2020, are dressing in blue and yellow clothing. Waving EU flags. Gushing over how dashing Michel Barnier is, and literally physically crying because they won't be "European" anymore. This is a new thing.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
We'd better listen up then.
| We now have a class of people in Britain who in 2015 never owned an EU flag. |
Surely the problem was always that pro-EUers were never flag-wavers for the EU. To the British, it was always a purely functional thing, whereas to the Europeans it is a living antidote to the perils of disunity i.e. having to live under Fascism, Communism and suchlike.
| Would've struggled to name a single EU politician, and if asked would've probably described the EU as a trading bloc with baubles. |
You got that right.
| Who now, in 2020, are dressing in blue and yellow clothing. Waving EU flags. Gushing over how dashing Michel Barnier is, and literally physically crying because they won't be "European" anymore. |
Honestly, Scottie, they really don't. I know we (I was one) seem like that to you but we still just see it as ... well, it's hard to think of the right phrase but a trading bloc with baubles would probably best sum it up. It's youse guys who think in apocalyptic terms. Which is why, I'm afraid, you will have to be returned to your cage. We thought it would be safe to let you out but we were wrong.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
N R Scott
In: Middlesbrough
|
|
|
|
| Mick Harper wrote: | | Honestly, Scottie, they really don't. I know we (I was one) seem like that to you but we still just see it as ... well, it's hard to think of the right phrase but a trading bloc with baubles. |
It's not all the people who voted remain though. Most have just accepted the result to some degree and got on with things. But the tens of thousands that have been politically radicalised by the process (who probably now approximate to the tens of thousands joining the Labour Party) definitely do behave like this. You can see them on TV every day dressed in their EU paraphernalia. Last night they were lighting candles in the street. Something we normally only do to remember the Holocaust or victims of terrorist attacks.
Personally I have some sympathy for them, many do look genuinely distraught, but it's pretty schizophrenic behaviour. They've spent the last 3 years saying the EU "is not a threat to British sovereignty" whilst at the same time waving an EU flag like it's an actual nation. This is why they keep losing.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
I am beginning to warm to your thesis. Though it could do without the commentary. You deserve one another. But perhaps it takes one to recognise one.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Chad
In: Ramsbottom
|
|
|
|
|
I suspect the majority of these 'new' members are, in actual fact, simply 'returning' members, who tore up their cards in the wake of Corbyn's victory and are giving it one last shot to win back the party.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
Do we need a ‘First Lady’? Boris is shacked up with someone at No 10 but are we ready for a “First Common Law Lady� Come on, Boris, make an honest woman of her. You can check with the Lesotho High Commissioner how it's all done. Their First Lady has just been charged with murdering the previous First Lady. But avoid making this rookie mistake
| Initially, unknown armed men were blamed for the murder, but new evidence filed in court papers includes a copy of a letter that the police chief wrote to the Prime Minister, dated 23 December 2019, which read: "The investigations reveal that there was a telephonic communication at the scene of the crime in question... with another cell phone. The cell phone number belongs to you." | |
|
| |
|
|
|
N R Scott
In: Middlesbrough
|
|
|
|
This just popped up on Twitter and it gives a good overview of the Labour membership surge
https://twitter.com/Valerie98375694/status/1226551928383033344?s=19
It supports Chad's view that it's returning ex-members coming back to save the party, but if you look at the replies you'll also see lots of EU flags and #FBPE hashtags in the names (or variants like #rejoiner, etc). So it's probably a combination of the two things driving the surge. The two things overlap quite heavily.
Also you can see in contrast that people on the Corbyn/RLB side of the argument don't really care about Europe as an issue one way or the other.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
|
I thought it was Redbecca's to lose, she, after all, has Momentum and Unite backing her campaign, but Keir is now about 10 to 1 on......
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
As AE-ists we must be careful not to confuse underlying principles with our personal preferences. The Hard Left are entirely justified in arguing that a 'socialist' party can mean anything from pussy-cat Blairite to ravening Leninist. It is up to the membership, not the voters, to decide. It is also up to the members how they decide. It is true that some Momentumist tactics are scarcely compatible with a 'democratic socialist' party but then the right can be pretty brutish when they have to be.
I suppose we would have to accept some kind of 'all's fair in love and politics' position so long as ultimately the 'democratic' bit means that ultimately the voters -- i.e. the electorate not the members -- will decide when and if a democratic socialist party like Labour gains power. If Momentum set up as an ordinary Leninist Party then, as AE-ists, we couldn't complain if they shoot us in our beds en route to the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We would just have to grin and bear it. Applied Epistemology has no loyalty to democracy. It's just another system of government as far as we are concerned.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Grant
|
|
|
|
Surely Applied Epistemology means that we must accept that we are stupid and make silly decisions. Only democracy allows us to correct silly decisions. Leninist or fascist governments change direction only when they crash and burn.
AE must support democracy
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
An excellent argument, Grant. Now put us in the picture for the following situations
1. states where a democratic government cannot be removed because one section of the population is in a permanent majority
2. states that are democratic but the franchise is restricted to a permanent minority
3. failed states where it appears a 'strong man' is essential
4. externally threatened states where it appears a 'strong man' is essential
5. states where a monarchy is preferred because the people are relatively unsophisticated (occasionally over-sophisticated)
6. Leninist and Fascist governments that are removable, eg in provincial governments
7. All Grant non-approved parties that aren't either Leninist or Fascist
8, 9, 10 Situations that haven't occurred to me within the first five minutes.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
Priti Patel, she's not from round here, is she?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
|
|
|
|
|
I have decided that Michael Bloomberg is to be our candidate for president of the United States. He's the only one that doesn't tick all the wrong boxes.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
The Library Index 
FAQ 
Search
Register
Profile 
Log in to check your private messages 
Log in 
