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Parental Love - a myth? (Politics)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
Interesting. Since Americans are mostly German, what has changed? And in whom?


Americans are not mostly German!

This nonsense springs from that old canard about the revolutionaries considering the adoption of German as the official language. That had nothing to do with demographics and everything to do with the desire to separate culturally from the mother country, Britain.

Americans are culturally Anglo-Saxon (like Australians and Canadians) and ethnically are a hodge-podge of just about everything on the face of the earth - including North American Indian (which is where the bulk of the native genepool went). At the time of the revolution, however, they were British -- often British-born. That was the problem. Being too British! Hence the desire to make some even artificial distinction so as to cement the separation.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Hatty wrote:
Also none on this site, we're irredeemably white, middle-class and over-educated. Does it matter?


Frankly, I couldn't care less about matters of skin-colour, nationalities, sexual preferences, upper, middle or no classs at all or what kinds of ornaments you put on your living-room shelves.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Frankly, I couldn't care less about matters of skin-colour, nationalities, sexual preferences, upper, middle or no classs at all or what kinds of ornaments you put on your living-room shelves.

The point, though, is that you've assumed this group of similar people (even allowing for the unfortunate foreigners amongst us) has ornaments and living-room shelves. They may go to great lengths to be tastefully different and avoid off-the-shelf items in favour of craft fairs and second-hand bookstalls, thus ending up even more alike than ever.

When I asked "does it matter?", I meant does the group have enough diversity to encompass a wide range of viewpoints. {For instance, I wonder if we can comprehend the sort of scenario with which you started this thread except in an abstract, patronisingly intellectual, way.}
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Stamford Hill (London), 2008.
From one extreme to another: we were shown how the children in a Hassidic community are stifled by over-controlling parents, particularly mothers. It's as though the main object is to demonstrate one's zealous adherence to Hassidic dicta to the rest of the community, in one instance the mother of ten, or was it twelve, children explained that although girls have to be modestly clad from the age of 12 onwards, her little girls had had to wear tights at the age of 3. Oy ve, poor little mites. Yet the community provides tremendous support both practical and emotional to its members, old and young, and what could be seen as deprivations such as no television in the house is justified by the parents as necessary to protect their kids from the depravity and violence of the mean streets beyond.

Seems to work on the whole although we glimpsed rumblings of rebellion, particularly from young men not surprisingly. This is not peculiar to orthodox Jewish families surely; keeping children safe from perceived contamination could prove more harmful to their development than neglecting them. A step too far in parental love? Or maybe it's merely the predictable outcome of any strict religious upbringing.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Shoulda mentioned that the programme told the story of a Hassidic Jew who'd been imprisoned for drug trafficking returning home upon his release; the film-makers wanted to see if he could be reintegrated into the community which, despite the unprecedented dishonour he'd inflicted, welcomed him back, even finding him a flat with an enormous-looking kosher kitchen. Their misgivings were well-founded, he kept receiving calls from Brazilian 'friends' and was ill at ease with his family who criticised his clothes, an important indication of whether he fitted in. [Brazilian girlfriends, it should be pointed out, are a no-no in Stamford Hill.]

Seemed that he'd wanted some excitement, danger even; he'd been in prison in Brazil, Israel and the UK so it wasn't a blip. At the end he appeared uncertain whether he'd stay... my guess is he'll be on the next 'plane to Rio.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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When I asked "does it matter?", I meant does the group have enough diversity to encompass a wide range of viewpoints. {For instance, I wonder if we can comprehend the sort of scenario with which you started this thread except in an abstract, patronisingly intellectual, way.}


I see. Well, probably there's not enough diversity. The trouble with these kinds of scenarios however is - imho - that it's hard to see it any other wise than in an abstract way, maybe. It goes just beyond true comprehension, I think. Once you let your emotions take over in a case of abusive violence (or - as Dan pointed out -in a case of literally fatal stupidity), you get so lost in it...at least that's what I try not to let happen with myself.

On the other hand: how can one not be emotionally involved in cases of violent abuse, whether it's children or animals or women or people with different religion or skin colour or....
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Hatty wrote:
Seems to work on the whole although we glimpsed rumblings of rebellion, particularly from young men not surprisingly. This is not peculiar to orthodox Jewish families surely; keeping children safe from perceived contamination could prove more harmful to their development than neglecting them. A step too far in parental love? Or maybe it's merely the predictable outcome of any strict religious upbringing.


Interesting case.
I'd say, I pity the children if they have to go out into the world one day sooner or later and are not prepared to cope with what's in store for them.
It's the same with the Amish (probably with all strictly religious upbringing): you can hide only so long from the world as it is.
This kinda thing could only work out if people are never to leave the community, but since all these communities exist in a bigger and meaner world...
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Forgot to say: I don't see this (the Hassidic Jews) as parental love gone too far, I rather think it's about keeping the community as a Hassidic community alive, keep the children inside so that they may not stray and wander off, marry a Goy maybe... they're sort of in exile and have to see -from their standpoint - that neither anyone gets lost nor any dangerous outsiders get in.
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EndlesslyRocking



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Tatjana wrote:
It's the same with the Amish (probably with all strictly religious upbringing): you can hide only so long from the world as it is.
This kinda thing could only work out if people are never to leave the community, but since all these communities exist in a bigger and meaner world...


Actually, I saw a documentary about Amish kids once. When they reach their late teens, they are allowed to go do what they will for two years. They can leave the Amish community and go and live among the "English". During that period they decide if they want to remain Amish or not. It's called "Rumspringa": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa

Apparently, most of them return to live in the community.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Forgot to say: I don't see this (the Hassidic Jews) as parental love gone too far, I rather think it's about keeping the community as a Hassidic community alive

This is certainly the impression given; not just their appearance but the distrust of outsiders goes against the trend of assimilation among most younger members of sects. It's not just a close-knit but a closed community. I doubt very much that a 'loopy' parent would get away with child abuse/murder; the family or community leaders would step in long before things got out of hand.

As for violence, no Jewish child remains ignorant of the holocaust, knowledge of their history and traditions is an integral part of their upbringing.

The Hassids were compared to the Amish.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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I didn't know most Americans were German, is that so?

I recently came across a map (dunnoware) showing the dominant ethnic origins for every county in the USA, with the usual Spanish, French, English and negro suspects around the edges, but the majority German; plus, English beat German to be the official language by 1 vote. (Whatever the motivation for the German vote, the motion couldn't even have been tabled unless there was a good number of German-speakers.)

That would explain it a bit then...

Such as...?

It's the same with the Amish (probably with all strictly religious upbringing): you can hide only so long from the world as it is.

Actually, they're pretty cool aren't they...? Oh, Rocky beat me to it.


BTW and totally off-topic: Dan, do you still have long hair - or is the mane gone?

Someone dredged up some old photos at work... and said I haven't changed a bit.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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DPCrisp wrote:
That would explain it a bit then...

Such as...?


BTW and totally off-topic: Dan, do you still have long hair - or is the mane gone?

Someone dredged up some old photos at work... and said I haven't changed a bit.


Well, it explains why Americans are so fond of Sauerkraut with Wurstchen!

Ahhh, good to hear that! I have changed a wee bit (inwardly) - but I still love "Ommadawn."
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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EndlesslyRocking wrote:

Actually, I saw a documentary about Amish kids once. When they reach their late teens, they are allowed to go do what they will for two years. They can leave the Amish community and go and live among the "English". During that period they decide if they want to remain Amish or not. It's called "Rumspringa": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa

Apparently, most of them return to live in the community.


I didn't know that, thanks for the info and the link.
Personally, I wouldn't mind living like the Amish, what with forgoing modern technical stuff, loads of animals around - it's the religious side I'd have extreme problems with.

Little note on the side: the word "rumspringa" is of antiquated German origin. It roughly translates into "jumping around"!
Nice, isn't it?!
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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What I mean is that Europe, in particular, appears to be in a death spiral of cultural suicide. That's what many outside (American) observers are reporting. There is a sickness there -- a hatred of life -- that began to manifest at the end of the 19th century.

Coinciding with the 'death of God'?

Personally, I wouldn't mind living like the Amish, what with forgoing modern technical stuff, loads of animals around - it's the religious side I'd have extreme problems with.

It's their serene certainty that outsiders find so appealing yet perplexing perhaps; in a sense everyone, apart from loners and AEists, is looking for a community of like-minded souls or a club with a similar ethos and lifestyle (including mode of dress), whether spiritual or secular.

the word "rumspringa" is of antiquated German origin. It roughly translates into "jumping around"!

I like it too. Reminds me of springbok, all those gazelle leaping deliriously into the air. Maybe Amish youth are bucks who spring.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote:
I recently came across a map (dunnoware) showing the dominant ethnic origins for every county in the USA, with the usual Spanish, French, English and negro suspects around the edges, but the majority German


Show me the money.
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