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Parental Love - a myth? (Politics)
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Kids can "hold you together", but wanting a kid to hold you together is the surest method of driving you apart?


From my own experience with my parents' marriage, I'd say yes. My mother's only reason not to leave an abusive, violent, alcoholic husband was her two children. As a result, she and the children suffered a few years more and in the end hubby dearest took off with a younger woman anyways.

And the initial reason for the marriage in the first place were children: my mother says: "I always wanted children." and my father wanted a male heir to the name of Eberhardinger of which he was absurdly proud. So for those two it turned out bad, just to "want children." They both had selfish reasons.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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And once the kid was in a routine and the parents had the evenings to themselves, they found they had nothing in common and split up

Yes but the point is having the time for yourself, whether or not you want "quality time" with the partner. I wonder if the majority of child abuse occurs around the bed-time power struggle which possibly goes back to the era of children being seen but not heard attitudes; our main concern seems to be exerting control to ensure they don't constitute a nuisance to ourselves or the outside world.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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I love my dog much more than any child

A dog is a decidedly less complicated proposition and far easier to 'bring up' though you may have to attend Dog Obedience classes if your mutt misbehaves or, if it goes berserk, have it put down which you can't do with your out-of-control teenager far as I know. But people can and do abandon pets, usually in the weeks after Christmas; as Dan said, it's not till you've got a child that you know if you want it, let alone if you're capable of bringing it up.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Hatty wrote:
A dog is a decidedly less complicated proposition and far easier to 'bring up' though you may have to attend Dog Obedience classes if your mutt misbehaves or if it goes berserk have it put down which you can't do with your out-of-control teenager far as I know. But people can and do abandon pets, usually in the weeks after Christmas; as Dan said, it's not till you've got a child that you know if you want it, let alone if you're capable of bringing it up.


That's all objectively true - although you make it sound a bit as if I have opted for dog instead of child for reasons of (in)convenience, which I didn't. I apologize if I misunderstood.

Still, children are abandoned as well as pets: woman, aged 24, takes car and rides off for a visit to friends, leaving her two-year-old alone in the flat, with a little drinking bottle and a plate of cookies. Woman comes back a week later. Kid is dead.

It's not just my dog - I prefer animals to humans (as a species - individual exceptions prove the rule on both sides) in general.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
[Quick survey at work, the question was "do you wish you hadn't had your children?" to which four out of five middle-class married women responded yes, the fifth being single and childless; the reasons were careers and money. The one who put the question has two teenagers, she hesitated and decided to keep the son but not the daughter].


I am shocked. Utterly shocked.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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I am shocked. Utterly shocked.

Likewise.

Don't you think though that it's more a sign of dissatisfaction with a not very interesting life? "If I hadn't had children I would've been able to make something of myself" syndrome.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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you make it sound a bit as if I have opted for dog instead of child for reasons of (in)convenience, which I didn't.

Hatty is just rationalising her instincts. I say let the instincts stand on their own, without clothing.

Woman comes back a week later. Kid is dead.

This is a separate dimension. I always expect it, but never cease to be amazed at how fucking stupid people can be.

It's not just my dog - I prefer animals to humans in general.

But once you've had Black, you'll never go back.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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It's not just my dog - I prefer animals to humans in general.

But once you've had Black, you'll never go back.

Sorry, Dan. I don't get it: who or what is Black? Am I standing on the line (again)?

BTW and totally off-topic: Dan, do you still have long hair - or is the mane gone?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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And the initial reason for the marriage in the first place were children

Which is the traditional reason to get married. No sane woman would try for another baby to save her marriage unless she's clinging onto financial security (another traditional reason). Women don't stay in a violent marriage for the sake of the children, they are trapped by their victim status. A bit like depression.

you make it sound a bit as if I have opted for dog instead of child for reasons of (in)convenience, which I didn't. I apologize if I misunderstood.

No, no, I wasn't imagining any such thing. Cruelty to animals is as heinous a crime as cruelty to children in English eyes because owning pets is seen as a responsibility voluntarily undertaken much as deciding to have kids is. (If you go to an animal rescue centre they grill you to assess your suitability and genuineness first; pity no-one thinks fit to put would-be parents through an aptitude test).

But once you've had Black, you'll never go back.

I'd rather sleep with a lab than a lad. Dan's being obscure or perverted, you can't trust a man who doesn't give to the guide dogs.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
Don't you think though that it's more a sign of dissatisfaction with a not very interesting life? "If I hadn't had children I would've been able to make something of myself" syndrome.


It's probably bigotry on my part but I can't help but think it representative of something dark and troubled that lies within the European soul.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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It's probably bigotry on my part but I can't help but think it representative of something dark and troubled that lies within the European soul.

Or "the darkness of man's heart" (William Golding) that lurks within us universally not just in Europe. We're all capable of inflicting suffering (q.v. the truly frightening prison experiments of Zimbardo)
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Dan's being obscure or perverted, you can't trust a man who doesn't give to the guide dogs.

You'd rather sleep with a lab and I'm being perverted?

Sorry, I didn't think that black-man's-bravado was obscure. (Thought it would be fun if someone inferred that I am black. I am easily amused.)

What AE point makes itself when I remind you that I have been sponsoring guide dogs for years?

It's probably bigotry on my part but I can't help but think it representative of something dark and troubled that lies within the European soul.

Interesting. Since Americans are mostly German, what has changed? And in whom?
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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DPCrisp wrote:
Sorry, I didn't think that black-man's-bravado was obscure. (Thought it would be fun if someone inferred that I am black. I am easily amused.)


Oh, that was it! But Dan ...I know you're not black... and there are no black people around me for miles (the good bourgoise German folks hereabouts would probably get a coronary).

I didn't know most Americans were German, is that so? That would explain it a bit then...

BTW and totally off-topic: Dan, do you still have long hair - or is the mane gone?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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But Dan ...I know you're not black... and there are no black people around me for miles

Also none on this site, we're irredeemably white, middle-class and over-educated. Does it matter?

You'd rather sleep with a lab and I'm being perverted?

Hang on, I said "sleep with", not have sex with. No perversions, alas, just a fear of cold feet.

What AE point makes itself when I remind you that I have been sponsoring guide dogs for years?

I don't see or even look for an "AE point". It's debatable whether guide dogs are worth sponsoring; the training takes years and costs thousands, the dog may 'fail' at the very last hurdle and be given up for adoption, the blind person and the dog have to be compatible, the dog's working life is limited to about ten years. There's the benefit of companionship of course but you don't usually get to hear about the mistreatment of the dogs, more often through ignorance than cruelty (as with most cases of children?).
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Ishmael


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Hatty wrote:
Or "the darkness of man's heart" (William Golding) that lurks within us universally not just in Europe. We're all capable of inflicting suffering (q.v. the truly frightening prison experiments of Zimbardo)


What I mean is that Europe, in particular, appears to be in a death spiral of cultural suicide. That's what many outside (American) observers are reporting. There is a sickness there -- a hatred of life -- that began to manifest at the end of the 19th century.

That is what I see. But I could be misinterpreting things.
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