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Parental Love - a myth? (Politics)
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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This has to do with psychology, I guess.

I'm not sure whether the news about some of the strange happenings in Germany hit the papers or TV outside this country, but in the last two years or so, there were at least 50 cases of parents or step-parents getting rid of their young by letting them starve and thirst to death, beating them to death, strangling newborns and putting them in a plastic bag and then either in the family's freezer (sometimes for years) or burying them in flower pots or throwing the bundle away in the woods and such like. Other cases tell of fathers and step-fathers raping their children up to 995 times, jailing them for years and producing incest offspring (Austria).

I know all this might be disturbing and painful to read but it makes me think of parental love. I don't have children myself and I'm not exactly fond of them, but I just cannot conceive of a father or mother doing anything like that - or a mother standing by and knowing what's happening to her child.

So is parental love just a myth, implanted firmly by I don't know who to make sure society works the way it does? Is it not a natural feeling, but an artificial one that we are "trained" to feel? Animal mothers try to defend their young in case of danger, sometimes under threat of their own lives... on the other hand, rabbits and hogs are known to eat their young in cases of extreme stress..

Are these fathers and mothers just very sick or very desperate people or both?
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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So is parental love just a myth, implanted firmly by I don't know who to make sure society works the way it does? Is it not a natural feeling, but an artificial one that we are "trained" to feel?

It's probably a natural instinct that society has made into a virtue to increase chances of stability. There is a difference though in giving birth and actually rearing young; the instant bonding is definitely there at birth but doesn't necessarily last throughout the subsequent years of looking after children.

There's also the question of 'victim mentality' for which people have little sympathy; if a mother is dominated by a controlling man she's quite likely to put up with almost anything to keep the partnership afloat, which may have appalling consequences. Even when her child is threatened. We're aghast, well I am anyway, when we read about such cases but if we're not in thrall to a pyschologically damaged person it's hard to see the parents as other than unnatural monsters.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Father to daughter on Jerry Springer: "I brought you up to take the place of your mother."

[clichés]

It takes all sorts.

You can choose your friends but not your family.

Babies don't come with instruction manuals.

[/clichés]

There is a lot of pressure on women to be maternal, but we need to acknowledge that it's not the same for everyone. Most people are normal, some are loopy about babies and some are, well, loopy when it comes to their babies. You could write a social history based on the way society deals with "non-standard elements". Abortion and adoption are still towards the taboo side -- and usually labelled as selfishness? -- but you don't get thrown in the nuthouse for it anymore.

The more complex and sophisticated a system, the more subtle and sophisticated its malfunctions can be. And the human brain is the most complex system we know of.

On the whole, I think parental love is a natural instinct. (Sometimes that's all there is and kids end up mollycoddled or undisciplined... and sometimes you wanna say "why did they bother having kids at all?") And you may not know whether you have it until the baby arrives.

On the whole, I think society works according to instinct and (fundamental) laws just reflect that because there is always a "fringe".
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Hatty wrote:
It's probably a natural instinct that society has made into a virtue to increase chances of stability.

Yes, I think that's true.

I'm female and at an age when I'm supposed to be crazy about little kids by lots of people and each time I mention that I'm just not they look at me as if I'd said I like kids fried with corn and tomatoes - as if it's unnatural for a woman not to be crazy about kids...I apparently lack that virtue valued by society - but I'm still horrified by what is done to some.

I spoke to my own mother about parental love being a natural instinct or not. She is 73, has born four children of which 2 survived and she said she doesn't believe it's a natural instinct - that it comes with time, not to be triggered at the moment of birth.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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DPCrisp wrote:
The more complex and sophisticated a system, the more subtle and sophisticated its malfunctions can be. And the human brain is the most complex system we know of.

That is something to let sink into consciousness. And frankly, I have nothing to add to that presently. It's just a fundamental truth.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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I like kids fried with corn and tomatoes

That's ghastly. Corn and tomatoes indeed.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Either with garlic sauce or ketchup for everyday use. And my dog gets the bones.

Forgot to mention sauerkraut. I'm in Germany, so "when in Rome..".
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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I'm in Germany, so "when in Rome..".

Kids probably get more maternal (and overall familial) love in Rome than in the UK or Germany. It must be cultural. Try breastfeeding on Hampstead Heath and see how strange the looks are (actually, Hampstead Heath is a bad example, they're far too liberal).

I apparently lack that virtue valued by society

Nothing as scary as a liberated woman in society's eyes. The other women are tied to their children's apronstrings so want you to be too, or at least make you feel guilty about not being in their situation.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Nothing as scary as a liberated woman in society's eyes. The other women are tied to their children's apronstrings so want you to be too, or at least make you feel guilty about not being in their situation.

Spot on, I think. Well, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were them: I don't feel guilty about it one bit!

Frankly, if I look at the world and what happens in it daily, I ask myself how anybody could wish for children to live in it. But that's an instinct thing again: people tell me: "I want something of me to stay in the world when I'm gone.", "It's the natural thing to do: marry and have kids, a family." and some such.

Eyes firmly closed on the future with environment gone down the drain, increasing violence all over the place in all kinds of forms...
bah. Poor children to be the heirs of today's parents.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Talking of clichés, the English love their dogs more than their babies. The most popular of the multitude of British charities is Guide Dogs for the Blind.

Frankly, if I look at the world and what happens in it daily, I ask myself how anybody could wish children to live in it.

Parents have children to gratify their own desires without considering what is best for baby. Maybe that's how the West will practise birth control, by making us feel guilty about the grim future awaiting our bambini.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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The most popular of the multitude of British charities is Guide Dogs for the Blind.

Is it? I was just thinking of transferring my support to someone else...

Parents have children to gratify their own desires without considering what is best for baby.

Trouble is, no one knows. You can't work it out in advance and you don't know how you're gonna feel when they arrive.

Knowing what is best for baby is an Applied Epistemological nightmare.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
Talking of clichés, the English love their dogs more than their babies. The most popular of the multitude of British charities is Guide Dogs for the Blind.

Dogs are just dogs. But most babies are other people's children.
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Tatjana


In: exiled in Germany
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Hatty wrote:
Talking of clichés, the English love their dogs more than their babies. The most popular of the multitude of British charities is Guide Dogs for the Blind.

That's true for the Germans as well. I read the comment of one stepfather whose wife's kid died of dehydration in its own bed. He said: "Well, I have more emotional connection with our dog."

Er... I love my dog much more than any child, but I wouldn't harm animal nor human actively or passively.

And Dan: I'm still a vegetarian (my dog isn't, though). And I do eat corn and tomatoes - without fried kid ;-,
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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But most babies are other people's children.

And as such can be endured for manageable lengths of time, unlike your own. As Tats said, the maternal instinct may have to be learned.

Kids are said to bring couples together but in reality childrearing is potentially more divisive than almost any other issue, raising questions over religion, politics, finance, discipline... Dan mentioned selfishness; it's clear that having a family lowers the standard of living but more importantly nothing else alters a mother's life as drastically or permanently, 'tis far simpler to change a job or a man (though not bank account apparently).

[Quick survey at work, the question was "do you wish you hadn't had your children?" to which four out of five middle-class married women responded yes, the fifth being single and childless; the reasons were careers and money. The one who put the question has two teenagers, she hesitated and decided to keep the son but not the daughter].
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Kids are said to bring couples together but in reality childrearing is potentially more divisive than almost any other issue

How often have you heard of one partner in a foundering marriage suggesting a baby to bring them back together? And how often has it worked?

On the other hand, of one of those get-your-kids-under-control programmes a few years ago, my wife immediately said that once the kid was going to bed routinely and the parents got the evenings to themselves, they'd find they have nothing in common. And once the kid was in a routine and the parents had the evenings to themselves, they found they had nothing in common and split up.

Kids can "hold you together", but wanting a kid to hold you together is the surest method of driving you apart?
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