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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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Now I wonder what these new findings in genetic science will do for the Irish self-awareness as them being the celtic nation in Europe. The Trinity College in Baile Atha Cliath did a widespread gegentic survey on y-chromosomes with men of several distinctive Irish surnames. It turned out that ... ohmygosh, the Irish are not really celts!! Instead it seems that the Irish population has stayed stable from around 7000BCE. Imagine that: no celtic migration. Just cultural interchange.
I go have a look where I can dig out the original article by MyEvoy et al. This would change a lot - and it would explain a lot (for instance the persisting occurrence of triple spirals as ornaments on stones and jewellery from Neolithic to Historic times....
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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Now I googled till black in the face but I can't produce a web link to the article. Fortunately I've made a handwritten note of the title and journal:
Brian McEvoy, Daniel G.Bradley:
Y-Chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames.
European Journal of Human Genetics, 2006. Sorry I don't have issue nbr...
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| it seems that the Irish population has stayed stable from around 7000BCE. Imagine that: no celtic migration. Just cultural interchange. This would change a lot - and it would explain a lot... |
Not necessarily, since all their migrations start off on the wrong foot, if you'll excuse the pun: cultural interchange and migration and getting into the minds of the ancients... total bollocks, if every single archaeological programme I've ever seen is anything to go by.
More specifically, THOBR points out that the Celts arrived after the English; 4 or 5 thousand BC, if not before, I reckon, so it would seem not a single scrap of professional scholarship pertains to this directly.
But in the sense that THOBR seeks to change everything and explain a lot, of course, you're right.
| Brian McEvoy, Daniel G.Bradley: Y-Chromosomes and the extent of patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames. European Journal of Human Genetics, 2006. |
You can try emailing [email protected] if you're especially keen, but since the extract begins
"Ireland has one of the oldest systems of patrilineal hereditary surnames in the world."
it may not be worthwhile: if they are hopelessly wrong about the ages of surnames then this paper won't be worth very much. Praps you can work out just what it is worth.
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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Hi Dan,
It just so happens that I do have the whole thing as a PDF file in my machine and I've read it, too, but since I'm not exactly into genetics, I'm afraid I don't have enough knowledge to judge it.
If you would like me to send it to you, just give me a word - and your email address to send it to, of course.
Trouble is, I'm so up to my eyebrows in work with that dig I'm leading, where just about everything goes wrong, I don't have much time to read up on genetics to arm myself with enough understanding....
booohooohoo (weep)
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Those of you with a passion to know the origin of all things might like to know that the Applied Epistemology Library began with Tatjana, Dan and me e-mailing one another (about salt, I think).
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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Yes indeed. Salt it was. And megaliths. And boats. And horses, too. And the benefits of nomadic life...Those were the days
Have you guys come to any conclusions on the Salt thing after I ..er..left?
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| If you would like me to send it to you, just give me a word... I don't have much time to read up on genetics... |
I can't immerse myself in it either, but someone's gonna hafta...
| I'm so up to my eyebrows in work with that dig I'm leading |
Do tell.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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If you would like me to send it to you, just give me a word... I don't have much time to read up on genetics...
I can't immerse myself in it either, but someone's gonna hafta... |
Duncan is sort of doing it on our behalf over on the Time Team forum in the Anglo-Saxons: Immobilists in the Ascendancy thread
http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8896096411/m/5890047979
As far as I can see the whole thing falls down (is going to fall down) on the fact that the genes of English-speakers native to England are going to be indistinguishable from (or at least not demonstrably discrete from) Anglo-Saxon invaders of England. But the studies do seem to be useful for separating out Celtic from English areas. However the problem here is that the initial Celtic baseline (taken from Central Ireland I believe) may not itself be exclusively Celtic.
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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I'm so up to my eyebrows in work with that dig I'm leading
Do tell. |
Well, it's just a small thing and rather a follow-up campaign on the real dig we had in 2006, when we (five blokes and me) excavated two medieval chapel ruins (of which no one - no archives, no chronicles - seems to know one shred of info about) side by side in the woods; something that could be either a bronze age burial or a dark ages settlement (no money for further investigation); several gypsum burning places from 12th to 19th century - and a medieval communal baking house.
And now I'm on the baking house busy with restoration. I earn 1,50Euro an hour for the privilege to mix a special sort of concrete and repair the walls and the fire vaults of the clay oven. And since just about everything goes wrong, I have a lot of organising to do, plus satisfying the German bureaucratic monsters...
See, I live on wellfare here, and they make you work when you receive benefits, so you get 1,-Euro to 1,50 Euro per hour, but you have to pay the fuel to get to work, your working clothes ... so nothing is left from the money and you work basically as a state slave. Still, I guess it's better than to collect garbage in town - which is another of those state-slave jobs I could have been put to do.
I'd rather try to dig up info on the two little chapels, one has been certainly a hermit's place in anything between the 12th and the fifteenth century, at one point secularised and turned into a potter's work-shop... all very exciting and intriguing....
Oh, and I have a mother with Alzheimer's to take care of and run a household of three adults and a dog -- leaves not much time to read stuff, alas.
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| [I] work basically as a state slave. |
Mick is a less-forgiving task master: you still might not be excused research duties.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Yes, she complains far too much. I am obliged to watch three different Law & Orders every day now I've got the Hallmark Channel but I've still got plenty of time to re-order the world's knowledge.
Still, I'll have a word with the German government and see if we can't persuade them to take Tatjana off her archaeological duties and onto collecting garbage. Any kind of academic day-work tends to corrupt the Applied Epistemological mind.
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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Ahhhhh, you two are so refreshing!
Now I really know what I've been missing all these years!
Well, I could try go without any sleep for a couple of weeks and do some research burning the midnight oil... (frowning furiously, rocking backwards and forwards and muttering to self....)
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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| Now I wonder what these new findings in genetic science will do for the Irish self-awareness as them being the celtic nation in Europe. The Trinity College in Baile Atha Cliath did a widespread gegentic survey on y-chromosomes with men of several distinctive Irish surnames. It turned out that ... ohmygosh, the Irish are not really celts!! Instead it seems that the Irish population has stayed stable from around 7000BCE. Imagine that: no celtic migration. Just cultural interchange. |
This is not news to me. It's something I have continually asserted since the beginning of this forum.
The Irish/Welsh/Cornish/Scots/Bretton ARE NOT CELTS.
This group should thus not be bracketed as Celtic as the very title conjures up a perception, in our minds, of them being part of an all-encompassing European political/cultural/linguistic 'confederation'. This is an illusion and it's about time we recognised it and came up with a more accurate descriptor.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Don't start this one all over again, Komoro. I think everybody here agrees that the Irish, Welsh, Bretons etc are not Celts in the sense of being connected in any way to the Celtae, Keltoi etc of the Ancients. We tried to agree a group name -- Brythonics, Goidelics -- but in the end we plumped for 'Celtic' on the grounds that we, at any rate, would know what we meant.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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| Don't start this one all over again, Komoro. I think everybody here agrees that the Irish, Welsh, Bretons etc are not Celts in the sense of being connected in any way to the Celtae, Keltoi etc of the Ancients. We tried to agree a group name -- Brythonics, Goidelics -- but in the end we plumped for 'Celtic' on the grounds that we, at any rate, would know what we meant |
No this is not the case, especially when Dan equates 'Celtland' to Megalithicia. In your above interpretation Megalithica would be a WEST BRITAIN ONLY phenomena and this is not so. And I suspect that newer members of this forum are just as confused.
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