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Getting people to vote against themselves (Politics)
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Tribality was, of course, largely responsible for the collapse in the Lib Dem vote. It had nothing to do with the performance of the coalition but was inevitable as soon as the Lib Dems entered into it.

A sizable proportion of Lib Dem voters at the General Election were 'tribal lefties' who believed they were following their social conscience (but were too posh, or disgruntled, to vote Labour).... Clegg has removed their only other option.

Fortunately for Cameron, Miliband Minor has about as much electoral appeal (to the uncommitted) as... err... Michael Foot.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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Basically in the UK, well England, since the introduction of suffrage, you have had a two and a bit party system of tribal voting. Let's call them, a Nice party a Nasty one and a Bit party in between.

This worked very well until the public figured out that where there was effectively no competition in their seat, they would have to vote tactically for the Bit party, as a way of stopping the party they did not care for getting into power. That is the true nature of tribalism....

This again worked very well and all were happy, and the Nice and Nasty could swap round every few years. And some folks could think they were being very clever, ie cleverer than the tribal voters, by voting tactically...

The only problem was the Bit party became so large they entered into coalition, thus totally buggering up the concept of tactical voting. Some had voted Bit to keep out Nasty but got the Nasty anyway.
Doh....

The sensible thing would be to change the system, and that was advocated by the Bit party. However as everybody now hated them for being duplicitous bastards this wasn't going to happen.

So we will come full circle and those who voted tactically now realise they were in fact morons....and have had to go back to tribal voting.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Chad wrote:
Would you trust your local council to have the competence not to cock it up?


By that logic, even your neighbor's success would not sway you.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Ishmael wrote:
Chad wrote:
Would you trust your local council to have the competence not to cock it up?


By that logic, even your neighbor's success would not sway you.


No only a lower level of competence is required to implement a copy the plan... once another local council has 'been there, done that' and rectified its costly errors.
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Grant



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Chad wrote: My genetic predisposition towards United sways me towards thinking we're going to beat them... even if my brain is screaming otherwise.


But how can you win with only 10 men on the field? The evidence is clear - even if you go two goals up Barcelona will get a penalty and a Man U player will be sent off for looking at the ref in a funny way.
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Edwin



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Outsourcing to a mix of organisations which will include those religiously affiliated totally wrong. My comfort, support etc should not be dependent on those who are either deluded or hypocritical?

A bowl of soup might have been worth a quick hymn back in the 19th century but to willingly, yes eagerly to try and reproduce those conditions is perhaps the greatest betrayal those great betrayors, the Tory elite have perpetrated.

And it was predictable, remember Thatcher and her advocacy of recreating "the servant class" which was one example or the gushing comments that we needed more "great country houses" to be built?
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Edwin wrote:
My comfort, support etc should not be dependent on those who are either deluded or hypocritical?


The human race?

Or just the Labour party?
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Edwin



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One can of course be wrong without being deluded thus a political party or its members can adopt incorrect policies but they will claim that these come about from an evidential basis linked to their particular ideology base.

Hopefully the policy will change if the evidence indicates it should but where it does not change then, yes, they are deluded. Thus Eric Pickles of the Tories dedication to dismantling virtually all aspects of elected local Government in Britain is the result of delusional thinking.

The Labour Party's multi-culturalism is probably another example. But, the idea of combining resources to provide public amenities such as bus services, libraries etc which were as much One England Tory ideals as much as socialist, were not delusional in terms of public good.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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You will find, Edwin, that if you try to disguise your puerile leftist views you will gradually cease to hold these views. It's an old AE trick. Try, just as an exercise, re-writing either of your last two effusions observing this precept and see what happens.
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Edwin



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Puerile is either an insult or a statement of fact. Please justify with evidence that I am, or my comments are: childish or indeed are some of the other derogatory things for which the word is used by those lacking in imagination or vocabulary.

AE presumably does not mean that its proponents are ill-educated boors.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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The word was used in its technical sense as meaning 'undeveloped' though of course, as a styliste superbe, I was embracing its secondary aspect as well. If you wish to develop your polemical skills you must learn never to be upset by an opponent's arguments, however personally wounding they may seem. If they were trying to wound you this is an error on their part and you should exploit it, if they were not trying to wound you you should treat the matter literally.

Please justify with evidence

Very well.

Thus Eric Pickles of the Tories dedication to dismantling virtually all aspects of elected local Government in Britain is the result of delusional thinking.

Mr Pickles, a bluff Yorkshireman of trenchantly honest and sincere bent, has spent his entire adult lifetime in 'all aspects of elected local Government in Britain'. Has he been dismantling it all this while or is he merely the local government cabinet minister in charge of supervising "the cuts", about which everybody across the political spectrum (except, as it happens, me) agrees to be necessary?

Feel free to grow up and tell us how, if you had your way, you would do exactly what Herr Picklegruber is doing only you would take a weensy bit longer over doing it. You cretinous dog.
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Edwin



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You have simply described the Pickles you see through prejudiced eyes but haven't shown that he is not deluded nor an ideologue.

For myself it is a matter of bitter regret, in part emotional admittedly, that we had the beginning of a truly civilised society with what was a healthier and better educated population now going. Parks and gardens freely available, libraries and museums, high and low art. All without the dead hand of cash in the till every time they were used.

If you object to such provisions answer if the American system of selling tickets to their National Parks is a good one. A charge that Tories of the ilk of Pickles have suggested imposing on us.

Or would you rather that the ego of the super-rich be soothed by pandering to the philanthropic approach of public provision.

Maybe you see some advantage in public squalor and private affluence (a cliche but an apt one).

I hadn't realised that an insult was the custom in these parts instead of the salutation, yours sincerely or similar but to use one would be really puerile.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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You are making the usual mistake of the politically committed and it is an error that AE is designed to overcome. You cannot see it because of your tribal blinkers, but you and Pickles are a cigarette paper apart. That is why I urged you to re-write your pieces by trying to hide your a priori position. In order to avoid obvious polemics you would be forced to come up with some rational argument.... but you would not have been able to without running into the cigarette-paper factor. However by another route you have been obliged to do so. Let us see how you got on.

You have simply described the Pickles you see through prejudiced eyes .

I know nothing of Pickles save a few interviews on Newsnight. I had to look up his career in local government when you mentioned him though I knew roughly what it would be because of the sort of person he is. That is why I knew intuitively that he could not possibly wish to 'dismantle local government' -- it's his whole goddamn raison d'etre!

but haven't shown that he is not deluded nor an ideologue

No doubt he is an ideologue (it takes one to know one) but the idea that he is deluded is just...just puerile. He disagrees with you, 's all.

For myself it is a matter of bitter regret, in part emotional admittedly, that we had the beginning of a truly civilised society with what was a healthier and better educated population now going. Parks and gardens freely available, libraries and museums, high and low art. All without the dead hand of cash in the till every time they were used.

Good grief, where have you been since 1850? This is another major fault of the primal leftie. Socialism, being an ideology of the mid-nineteenth century, takes all its baggage where e'er it goes! Pickles by the way is Alderman Foodbotham, another nineteenth century character. Oddly, the Foodbothams of this world were lefties in the nineteenth century. Ideologies are always lovingly preserved by their adherents. Here's a prediction: both you and Pickles like brass bands playing in bandstands in public parks on a Sunday afternoon. And neither of you will be in the least nonplussed by being the only two people in the audience.

If you object to such provisions answer if the American system of selling tickets to their National Parks is a good one. A charge that Tories of the ilk of Pickles have suggested imposing on us.

As an AE-ist I'd have to say "Give it a whirl." If it works, keep it; if it doesn't, chuck it."

Or would you rather that the ego of the super-rich be soothed by pandering to the philanthropic approach of public provision.

Yes, that's always been a good idea too.

Maybe you see some advantage in public squalor and private affluence (a cliche but an apt one).

Yes, I do. Sometimes. Some places. In some circumstances.

I hadn't realised that an insult was the custom in these parts instead of the salutation, yours sincerely or similar but to use one would be really puerile.

I thought you'd get the joke but I'll try to desist now I know better the cut of your jib. Edwina.
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Edwin



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Thought it might be an interesting forum but as one can't get past the kind of thinking I got fed up with dealing with this sort of non-argument years ago, I am gone

And fuck you.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Edwin wrote:
I am gone

Shame, seemed such a nice young chap... if somewhat dermally challenged.
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