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Getting people to vote against themselves (Politics)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Grant wrote:
blah blah blah...Neocon agenda.


That's what I heard.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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nemesis8 wrote:
This interests me. Is this what you think, or is this what you know?


It's what I have concluded from the sum of evidence.

Of course one must allow for a shocking surprise but I'd bet the proverbial farm on this one.
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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OK can I have a clue?
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Chad wrote:
I now choose to go about completely devoid of labels...I do however, always have a bucket of sand to hand, in which to bury my head whenever the situation demands and I leave it entirely to others to bugger things up with their political choices, while I concentrate on more important things, like tinkering with old watches, making absinthe and walking my dogs.


Well bugger me... would you believe it?

We don't do straws in Ramsbottom

The only time in my entire life that my vote would have made a difference... and I didn't bother to cast it.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Yes, I spotted that (I was watching at four am when it happened) though of course I have been not voting on these grounds all my life. There was one previous case, a one vote difference in a Parliamentary seat (Peterborough?) but that made no difference because the overall large Parliamentary majority was unaffected.

However, Chad, if it is any consolation, there is no guarantee that, if you had voted, you would have voted the right way!
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Mick Harper wrote:
However, Chad, if it is any consolation, there is no guarantee that, if you had voted, you would have voted the right way!


That's very true... However pragmatic I try to be, I feel my genetic predisposition towards Labour would (when it comes to the crunch) sway me in that direction, even if my brain was screaming otherwise.

Having said that... I think Labour was the better choice in the present situation.

So all's well that ends well.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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Yes, one wouldn't like to vote for the Barcelona de nos jours.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Arr... Barcelona.

My genetic predisposition towards United sways me towards thinking we're going to beat them... even if my brain is screaming otherwise.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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You understand the tribal nature of your attachment to a) the Labour Party and b) Manchester United. Your brain permits you to 'believe' that Man U will beat Barcelona even though your brain also knows the objective truth, ie the bookie's odds in a free market make Barca favourites. But at an AE level you know your own belief is tosh. Why? Because football matches are designed to show who is truly best and you and your tribalism cannot in the end avoid this. This sadly is not true with the struggle between political parties.

Now I, as an AE-ist without tribal loyalties, can assure you that the Tories should be supported at the moment. (We'll ignore whether it is at the national or the Ramsbottom level.) I would argue, like the bookies odds, that since we live in a democracy it is correct to support the Tories because that is what the country supports presently (ignoring temporary protest votes etc). It is what people want, by definition.

However, you will argue, like all voters do, that you know better than 'the country' what is in the best interests of the country. Actually I argue this is true of myself, since I an a neutered AE-ist and can weigh these things with a fine and rare judgement.

However I have earned this right by genuinely not supporting anybody except whoever happens to be the really quite obvious choice at each election, and I know this to be true because the actual party I choose changes unpredictably.

You have been awarded a unique chance to join me. You didn't vote when the fate of your fellow-citizens was in your hands. If you let this prey on your mind properly you will find the path to true wisdom etc etc.
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Mick wrote:
Now I, as an AE-ist without tribal loyalties, can assure you that the Tories should be supported at the moment.


I (reluctantly) agree with you at a nation level, however, at a local level, the incumbent Tories in Bury were advocating the outsourcing of ALL council services... a rather radical experiment I would rather witness from a distance.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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So you are frightened on principle by radical (but demonstratively rational) initiatives. Yes, a tribal leftie all right. Oh for the 1850's!
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nemesis8


In: byrhfunt
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Oh for year zero! (Ishchron)
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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Mick Harper wrote:
Yes, a tribal leftie all right.

True... When push comes to shove (unless the choice is obvious) it is difficult not to be swayed by historical affiliations.

So you are frightened on principle by radical (but demonstratively rational) initiatives.

No, it's not the principle I fear, but its application (I would love to see a neighbouring council run with this radical initiative)... just not in my back yard!

Would you trust your local council to have the competence not to cock it up?
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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When push comes to shove (unless the choice is obvious)

A frequent but hopeless position. The point about tribality is that it is specifically designed to ensure the choice never becomes obvious. You should not take the fact that tribality declines with age, nor that you are living in a society which is becoming less tribal, as evidence of your own 'gaining of wisdom'. But let us see:

No, it's not the principle I fear, but its application (I would love to see a neighbouring council run with the idea)... just not in my back yard!

Outsourcing is surely now the norm rather than the exception in all councils. What is the precise objection to its application across the board?

Would you trust your local council to have the competence not to cock it up?

I thought the whole point of outsourcing was because local councils are, of their nature, incompetent. However I accept that technically your position of "let someone else suck it and see" is the correct AE one. But should it happen can you be trusted to say "Cor lummee (or whatever Yorkshire folk say), tha's worked well, we'll 'ave summat that". Or will you say, "Yes, well of course it would work in Altrincham...."?

It is clear to an AE-ist the real forward step is to remove politics entirely from local government because people cannot be persuaded to vote on the efficacy of their local council but always vote on national lines. You might then vote for rival consortia which would be like these new educational trusts, a mix of capitalist outfits, non-profit enthusiasts, charities and (who knows?) political parties.

Always remember that we live in Britain where democracy is so well entrenched we can afford to abandon it!
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Chad


In: Ramsbottom
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A frequent but hopeless position. The point about tribality is that it is specifically designed to ensure the choice never becomes obvious.

Yes, this is one of the main reasons I extricated myself from the voting system.

You should not take the fact that tribality declines with age, nor that you are living in a society which is becoming less tribal, as evidence of your own 'gaining of wisdom'.

No, my tribality has not actually declined significantly... I've simply become aware of its influence on me and made a conscious effort to see beyond it... (It's a 'work in progress'.)

Outsourcing is surely now the norm rather than the exception in all councils. What is the precise objection to its application across the board?

None at all... I would simply prefer 'Altrincham' to sort the chaff from the wheat, before following suit.

It's not easy to establish the best sub-contractors... and mistakes (sometimes costly) will inevitably occur.

But should it happen can you be trusted to say "Cor lummee (or whatever Yorkshire folk say)...

No, as a proud Mancunian, I could never be trusted to say anything that Yorkshire folk say (nor indeed "Cor lummee")!

It is clear to an AE-ist the real forward step is to remove politics entirely from local government because people cannot be persuaded to vote on the efficacy of their local council but always vote on national lines. You might then vote for rival consortia which would be like these new educational trusts, a mix of capitalist outfits, non-profit enthusiasts, charities and (who knows?) political parties.

Now this is one radical idea I could really throw my weight behind...

But first I'd like to see how it goes in 'Altrincham' or some wealthy London borough.
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