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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, but all the colour washed out many, many years ago. I then chose a shiny new label which soon fell off (they don't make labels like they used to)...I think it read something like 'pragmatist' or maybe 'neo-pragmatist' (whatever that was).
I now choose to go about completely devoid of labels...I do however, always have a bucket of sand to hand, in which to bury my head whenever the situation demands and I leave it entirely to others to bugger things up with their political choices, while I concentrate on more important things, like tinkering with old watches, making absinthe and walking my dogs.
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Grant
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Ishmael wrote:
| I rather doubt actually you could give an honest definition of neo-conservatism, let alone an honest appraisal. |
What about: A political group which believes in exporting democracy at the point of a gun. Surprisingly, despite the world being full of non-democratic states, the only ones the Neocons have chosen to attack are those states which are also enemies of Israel. Even the search for Osama was scaled back when the Neocons decided it would be much more fun to attack Saddam. Their long-term goal is to destroy Iran and Syria, ushering in a world of peace and plenty in the Middle East. (While this is happening, the other despots in the world can continue with business as usual.)
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Chad wrote: | | I think it read something like 'pragmatist' or maybe 'neo-pragmatist' (whatever that was). |
I can't bring myself to do it. It's the cowardly way to deny liberalism. "No; I don't believe the rich are thieves. No; I don't believe in government programs to control the weather. But I'm not one of those nasty conservatives. No no. Please don't lump me in with that awful lot."
| I concentrate on more important things, like tinkering with old watches, making absinthe and walking my dogs. |
I agree with you though. That is more important.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Grant wrote: | Ishmael wrote:
| I rather doubt actually you could give an honest definition of neo-conservatism, let alone an honest appraisal. |
What about... |
I rest my case.
You see, even now, I could write a summary of your position so fair and sympathetic you would think it authored by a fellow-traveler. Were I to post it here under a pseudonym, you would believe the Cavalry had arrived to help fend off this monstrous Ishmael character.
If you cannot empathize with your opponents sufficiently to express their arguments accurately and fairly then you have never truly thought the problem through.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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And I've got news for you Grant.
(Osama is dead)
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Ishmael, everyone can do what you claim to be able to do when it comes to their opponents. It is your own position that defies analysis because to you it merely shades into 'common sense' (or high morality if that is your preference). Now you were going to tell us how you distinguish your position from your neo-liberal opponents on AE grounds...
PS Chad has already done this (if he speaks the truth about only burying his head occasionally).
PPS Chad, now concentrate on the head-burying issues.
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Mick you are overcomplicating.... anyone who calls themselves .neo.....(anything).... is a rogue or a charlatan.
They (the 'neos') should all be put in the stocks for at least a week, to contemplate the idiocy of their ways, and to allow the general public to snigger at them. If after a week they have repented, they might be readmitted to society, on the strict proviso they have had their tongue removed.
I can.t see any other sensible position on this, so you must have taken to try fooling us with trick questions.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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Damn it Nemo...I had you down as a 'neo-humorist'...now I'm going to have to re-categorize you!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Ishmael, everyone can do what you claim to be able to do when it comes to their opponents. |
No they cannot.
I usually credit you with some measure of wisdom by default but in this case you could not be more wrong. I regularly challenge my leftist friends and acquaintances to present the opposing argument and they cannot do it. They typically find they are not even familiar with it.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| nemesis8 wrote: | | They (the 'neos') should all be put in the stocks for at least a week, to contemplate the idiocy of their ways, and to allow the general public to snigger at them. If after a week they have repented, they might be readmitted to society, on the strict proviso they have had their tongue removed. |
Then throw me in with them.
It is exactly this sort of thinking that most sickens me.
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| Chad wrote: | | Damn it Nemo...I had you down as a 'neo-humorist'...now I'm going to have to re-categorize you! |
Damn it Chad. You have switched from idealism to pragmatism to not giving a monkey's.
Clearly your head is stuck in Ramsbottom.
What upsets me most is you sound incredibly content with your lot.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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| What upsets me most is you sound incredibly content with your lot |
Please don't be upset Nem, I really am happy with my incredible contentment...It's taken me a long time to achieve and it's come about as a result of learning to cope with hypertension in particular and stress in general.
It allows me to view things dispassionately (most of the time) and only take the important things in life seriously.
And, as you get older, you get sick of thumping tubs.
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Grant
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Ishmael wrote
| If you cannot empathize with your opponents sufficiently to express their arguments accurately and fairly then you have never truly thought the problem through. |
Why don't I just quote Irving Kristol, the godfather of the movement: 'one can say that the historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be this: to convert the Republican party, and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy.'
Note the 'against their respective wills'. The 'new kind of conservative politics' is not actually conservative at all. It involves promoting immigration, abortion and an anti-Christian agenda under the shield of human rights. It involves the replacement of the rights of individuals for the rights of groups. It also involves the characterisation of the USA as an ideological state, not a historical one. This last step is essential because it means that the US military machine can be used to crush other nations which refuse to bend to the Neocon agenda, even if the American masses don't give a fig about those nations, or even know where they are.
So why is the movement so persuasive? Basically because all of us have the ability to convert our own self-interest into an intellectual position. We don't even know we are doing it.
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| Chad wrote: | | What upsets me most, is you sound incredibly content with your lot |
Please don't be upset Nem, I really am happy with my incredible contentment...It's taken me a long time to achieve and it's come about as a result of learning to cope with hypertension in particular and stress in general.
It allows me to view thing dispassionately (most of the time) and only take the important things in life seriously.
And as you get older, you get sick of thumping tubs. |
Before I am totally consumed by envy, perhaps you could complain about the poor broadband connection in Ramsbottom, or that you had a break in, at the local one stop, perhaps the local post office has had to close down.
Surely, you can think of something, or anything, to make the rest of us feel better, about the totally rotten and corrupt world which the rest of us inhabit......
No, hang on, can you sell me the secret of your sucess, I have some useful contacts......
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| Ishmael wrote: | And I've got news for you Grant.
(Osama is dead) |
This interests me. Is this what you think, or is this what you know?
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