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This seems to be what we know about St. Patrick:
1) He was born to an aristocratic Roman family somewhere in Wales, Scotland, England or Gaul.
2) He spoke Latin or some kind of Celtic language.
3) His written Latin was very poor.
4) It is not known what language his parents spoke. The two most proposed candidates seem to be Welsh or Latin.
5) He was kidnapped at age 16 and taken to Ireland and sold into slavery. When he was there he sat on the hills in isolation and talked to the Lord and the sheep. While all by himself he learned the language that the natives spoke.
6) He escaped from Ireland on a ship full of hounds. The ship took 3 days to get to where it was going (Gaul presumably). When Patrick and the sailors got there, they got off the ship and wandered around a "desertum" for 2 weeks. The dogs and the sailors were close to expiring. Patrick told them to have faith and then a stampede of pigs came hurtling down the road for them to eat.
7) A few years later Patrick manages to make his way back to Britain and reunites with his family. There, he has visions that are meant to summon him to Ireland. So he goes (back) to Gaul and gets ordained as a priest. He then gets called to Rome and is made a Bishop by Pope Celestine in 432.
8) After being made a bishop, Patrick asks to go to Ireland. He is denied and another bishop called Palladius is sent instead. Palladius goes to Ireland and does some evangelising. Then he dies.
9) Patrick then gets chosen to go to Ireland. He evangelises practically the entire island.
10) There are two documents attributed to Patrick (written in Latin) - a confession and a letter. In terms of dates and places he is almost as vague as Gildas.
11) St. Patrick is not mentioned by either Prosper of Aquitaine or Bede. They both attribute the conversion of Ireland to Palladius. "Succat" was Patrick's Welsh baptismal name and means "Good at war". Apparently, "Succat" can accurately be translated into Latin as "Palladius".
I have some questions:
A) What was St. Patrick's native tongue? Latin can probably be ruled out since no one really spoke Latin.
B) It is said that his written Latin was poor because his education was interrupted at the "early" age of 16 (when he was kidnapped). But isn't age 16 rather late in relation to learning basic writing skills - especially if you are an aristocrat and your parents are presumed to be Latin-speaking Romans. Even in western countries today, secondary school generally ends about age 17/18. So the kidnapping doesn't seem like a very good explanation for why his Latin was bad. Anyone have any others?
C) When he was in Ireland guarding the sheep, how did he learn the language of the natives sitting on a hillside by himself all day long.
D) Where could this desert be that he wandered around in? Where is the most wasteland-ish place in Britain or Gaul - Scotland? Where is the closest real desert - North Africa? Or is the reference to the "desertum" meant symbolically?
E) Were Patrick and Palladius the same person, or different people whose histories have been conflated and confused?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| "Succat" was Patrick's Welsh baptismal name and means "Good at war". |
Succat is an uncommon name. It doesn't sound particularly Welsh... apparently there's a village in Scotland called Succoth, in Argyll and Bute, just across the sea from Ireland, which might lend credibility to the Irish kidnapping saga.
If Patrick was a Scot, that might explain his lack of familiarity with Latin and also the surprising ease with which he seemed to pick up the local lingo in Ireland, Scottish and Irish Gaelic being so close linguistically.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| 1) He was born to an aristocratic Roman family somewhere in Wales, Scotland, England or Gaul. |
Patrick effectively means father, right? Surely, they just assume it comes from a posh Roman name like Patroclus.
A Patron Saint called Patrick? Yeah, that's just an accident of history.
| 2) He spoke Latin or some kind of Celtic language. |
Everyone is supposed to have spoken Latin or some kind of Celtic language.
| 3) His written Latin was very poor. |
Perhaps this Father figure needs to be connected with the common people.
| 6) He escaped from Ireland on a ship full of hounds... a stampede of pigs came hurtling down the road for them to eat. |
Not that stampeding pigs offer an easy morsel, this sounds like pure mythology. Dogs and ships remind me of Nehalennia (who reminds me of Britannia)... there are stampeding pigs in the Bible somewhere... and don't pigs turn up in an episode of the Odyssey to eat something?
(The snake incident is obviously way too mythical for anyone to tender as a fact about Patrick.)
| He is denied and another bishop called Palladius is sent instead. |
Doesn't Palladius mean walled, palisaded? Patrick was blocked by a wall?
| "Succat" was Patrick's Welsh baptismal name and means "Good at war". Apparently, "Succat" can accurately be translated into Latin as "Palladius". |
Like the warrior goddess Athena, a.k.a. Pallas?
('Course, the Palladion was an image of Athena kept in the walled citadel of Troy... and some contend that Troy was actually in Britain.)
| C) When he was in Ireland guarding the sheep, how did he learn the language of the natives sitting on a hillside by himself all day long. |
Irish sheep, obviously. (It's a bah-barian tongue, after all.)
| D) Where could this desert be that he wandered around in?... Or is the reference to the "desertum" meant symbolically? |
Apart from Spain being a bit desert-y and a bit Gaul-y... wandering in the desert is pure (Biblesque) mythology.
| E) Were Patrick and Palladius the same person, or different people whose histories have been conflated and confused? |
Or two characters conflated. (Or one character "dis-flated".)
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Patrick effectively means father, right? Surely, they just assume it comes from a posh Roman name like Patroclus.
A Patron Saint called Patrick? Yeah, that's just an accident of history. |
It's odd that this Palladius was the first Bishop of Ireland when Patrick is the celebrated figurehead of Irish Christianity... almost as though there are political undertones going on (well, we are talking about Ireland). If Palladius, appointed by the Pope, was the official RC bish, that might make Patrick the representative of the "other", rival Christianity. Who didn't speak Latin, the acknowledged language of the Roman Church.
...there are stampeding pigs in the Bible somewhere... and don't pigs turn up in an episode of the Odyssey to eat something?
(The snake incident is obviously way too mythical for anyone to tender as a fact about Patrick.) |
Yes, I was reminded of the Gaderene swine too; the parable about the casting out of devils, from man to pig. Over-doing it perhaps to have pigs and snakes swirling around in the same myth, essentially the same function symbolising getting rid of devilish influences.
| Like the warrior goddess Athena, a.k.a. Pallas? |
Rather a pagan namesake for a bishop of Rome. There was a sixteenth-century Renaissance architect called Palladio, after whom Palladian architecture took its name, considered, according to wiki, as "the most influential person in the history of Western architecture"....
| His talents were first recognized in his early thirties by Count Gian Giorgio Trissino, who also gave him the name Palladio, an allusion to the Greek goddess of wisdom Pallas Athene |
Good Shepherd cometh (but is ignored). Same story, different location. Why did he go back to Ireland, the land where he'd been living as a slave? Seems like Ireland is Plato's cave, the place of darkness.
The first mention of Patrick as a "historical" character was in the seventh century by two Church of Armagh propagandists, Muirchú and Tírechán (ignoring, for the moment, Patrick's autobiographical Confessions). Written a couple of hundred years after the event, it was clearly a reconstruction, perhaps to promote Armagh and appropriate a popular figure for the church.
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| DPCrisp wrote: |
| "Succat" was Patrick's Welsh baptismal name and means "Good at war". Apparently, "Succat" can accurately be translated into Latin as "Palladius". |
Like the warrior goddess Athena, a.k.a. Pallas?
|
Athena. Yes, that's right:
- "Succat, the saint's baptisimal name, in the ancient British language means "Good at war," (modern Welsh hygad, warlike,) and is accurately translated by Palladius, (from Pallas,) a common Roman name at that period."
- "Pallus: a name of Minerva, sometimes called Pallas Minerva. According to fable, Pallas was one of the Titans, of giant size, killed by Minerva, who flayed him, and used his skin for armour; whence she was called Pallas Minerva. More likely the word Pallas is from pallo, to brandish; and the compound means Minerva who brandishes the spear."
So, the name Palladius comes from a root meaning "to brandish", which could be interpreted to mean "good at war". I guess that is how the connection was made.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| If Palladius, appointed by the Pope, was the official RC bish, that might make Patrick the representative of the "other", rival Christianity. Who didn't speak Latin, the acknowledged language of the Roman Church. |
But Patrick was sent by a Roman pope? Does sound like all this stuff about Latin and kidnap is the ultimately-successful-RC Church failing to make sense of some earlier episode(s) in didn't-get-Christianity-from-the-Romans Ireland.
(There's also a whisper in the back of my mind about the Centaurs, most of whom were brutes, some of whom were healers/ teachers/ mentors. Bad guys becoming good guys...? Very Platonic, too!)
| Rather a pagan namesake for a bishop of Rome. |
How about Saint Dionysius!?
| Why did he go back to Ireland, the land where he'd been living as a slave? Seems like Ireland is Plato's cave, the place of darkness. |
Good call!
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| So, the name Palladius comes from a root meaning "to brandish", which could be interpreted to mean "good at war". I guess that is how the connection was made. |
But palus is 'stake' and related to all sorts of stake, column, fence... words. The 'shaft/spear' sense might be the root of the 'to brandish' sense.
A protective skin is awfully like a protective wall/palisade. (Cf. pall: rich cloth, cloak, altar cloth, from L. pallium cloak, covering... related to pallo robe, cloak...) It seems to be all one meaning to me.
| According to fable, Pallas was one of the Titans, |
Ah, very interesting: some connect the Titans with the Celts. And some connect the Celts with the Trojan War, which some connect with Britain.
| ...of giant size, killed by Minerva, who flayed him, and used his skin for armour; whence she was called Pallas Minerva. More likely the word Pallas is from pallo, to brandish; and the compound means Minerva who brandishes the spear. |
Ah, very interesting: skin as armour sounds like Heracles and the lion, which is perhaps about the emergence of iron, which is connected with the Celts.
Athena wore Medusa's face as a breastplate, the Aegis, didn't she? And Medusa is all about people turning to stone... the legendary origins of megalithic standing stones, which some connect with the Celts. The Dwarfs/Giants of Nordic myth also turn to stone and are also connected by some to the Titans/Celts.
The warrior-woman brandishing a spear reminds me (apart from Nehalennia/Britannia again) of the (Athena notwithstanding) alien-to-the-Greeks and made-a-point-of-by-Plato "figure and image of the goddess in full armour" favoured by the Atlanteans, since "military pursuits were then common to men and women". Furthermore, "the warrior class dwelt by themselves around the temples of Athene and Hephaestus at the summit, which moreover they had enclosed with a single fence like the garden of a single house."
Some connect Atlantis with Britain and the Celts; and some connect Hephaestus with the Dwarfs and the Celts.
Hmmm.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| A protective skin is awfully like a protective wall/palisade. (Cf. pall: rich cloth, cloak, altar cloth, from L. pallium cloak, covering... related to pallo robe, cloak...) It seems to be all one meaning to me. |
Cloaks, robes, coverings...all related to disguise, melting into the background (cf. pallid, pale, etc.) and defence, the thief in the night. Being prepared in the Platonic sense. Maybe Palladius was intended to prepare the way for Patrick.
I wonder if there's any connection between Pallas/Palladius and Pollux/Polydeuces.
| Ah, very interesting: some connect the Titans with the Celts. |
There's a Dionysus link too. The infant Dionysus, in mortal danger from the murderous Titans, was said to be protected by the Kouretes (Korybantes), "primitive magicians and seers" as well as warriors. Which is similarly Centaurish, the uneasy combo of warlike and wise qualities.
| And Medusa is all about people turning to stone... |
Also a snake-woman. {An author writing about the Black Sea remarked on the prevalence of snake-women in the pottery of the region, often found as handles on jars}.
| The warrior-woman brandishing a spear reminds me (apart from Nehalennia/Britannia again) of the (Athena notwithstanding) alien-to-the-Greeks and made-a-point-of-by-Plato "figure and image of the goddess in full armour" favoured by the Atlanteans |
Warrior-women remind me of Scythian princesses.
| ...some connect the Titans with the Celts. And some connect the Celts with the Trojan War, which some connect with Britain. |
Isn't there a creation myth about giants building Albion? Or maybe it only pertains to celtic Cornwall.
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Pulp History
In: Wales
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The only Welsh word near to 'succat' is syched - pronounced 'suck-ed' with a a 'hhhh' on the end of 'suck'........ this means dry or in the personal sense is 'thirsty' - "he came from Britain, he had a thirst for knowledge, he studied scripture at St Martin's College" - a rewriting of Pulp's classic!!!
_________________
Question everything!
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Cloaks, robes, coverings...all related to disguise, melting into the background (cf. pallid, pale, etc.) |
The etymology for pale is circular: from Latin pallidus or the proto-Indo-European for pale. But there is also pale, palea: bracts or scales in certain flowers or (in Late Middle English) a straw; palea being Latin for chaff. All about enclosing/protecting again. Perhaps pale literally means chaff/straw-coloured. All one meaning still.
| I wonder if there's any connection between Pallas/Palladius and Pollux/Polydeuces. |
I wouldn't be surprised. Pollux is a boxer and Pallas seems to be several characters, but generally warlike. Athena took his skin as the Aegis (and mounted Medusa's head on it?), which was a breast plate or shield, depending. Pallas and Aegis have something to do with goats. The Aegis was also wielded by Zeus, who, having been suckled by one, has a habit of being protected by goats. (... where we'll stop, nobody knows.) Is Aries caprine enough to be connected, too?
| Warrior-women remind me of Scythian princesses. |
And the Scots/Scüts/Scyts/Scyths claim(ed) to be Scythian... and the Picts were very particular about their married women having certain rights... {he says, gesturing towards rather than pointing to}.
| Isn't there a creation myth about giants building Albion? Or maybe it only pertains to celtic Cornwall. |
Dunno. The Saxons supposedly attributed Roman remains to Giants -- the roads in particular? I don't recall the megaliths being mentioned specifically. I find it hard to believe Roman engineering would not have been perfectly well known to the Saxons... and I speculated that they might really have meant the Giants, i.e. the Celts.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan wrote:
| The snake incident is obviously way too mythical for anyone to tender as a fact about Patrick |
I read somewhere that the snake episode was related to the expulsion of Snake Worshippers. And if I'm not mistaken snake worship has a Middle Eastern origin.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Pulp History wrote: | The only Welsh word near to 'succat' is syched - pronounced 'suck-ed' with a a 'hhhh' on the end of 'suck'........ this means dry or in the personal sense is 'thirsty' |
...rather reminiscent of Sukkot (Succoth), the Jewish harvest festival, with its references to the years in the wilderness and the need for rain to water the crops.
The shelters or sukkot are overlain with branches or other organic matter but have to be partially open to the sky according to the Law. The custom of waving wands (specifically palm, willow, myrtle and a citron), mandatory for males over bar-mitzvah age, has overtones of traditional Easter palm-fronds. No palm trees in Ireland as far as I know, though Palm Sunday is also known as Branch Sunday, for that reason presumably.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| I read somewhere that the snake episode was related to the expulsion of Snake Worshippers. |
I read somewhere that "snake worshippers" was a reference to Druids.
Furthermore, St P didn't just rid the island of snakes but drove them into the sea which is clearly a reference not only to the Gaderene swine but to Moses parting the Red Sea with his staff and causing the drowning of the Egyptian hordes. He was either a prophet coming from the wilderness to save the Chosen People or the destroyer of ancient divine wisdom.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| I read somewhere that the snake episode was related to the expulsion of Snake Worshippers. And if I'm not mistaken snake worship has a Middle Eastern origin. |
So Patrick is Patron Saint George then? (Also with a Middle Eastern origin, they say.) Ireland is separated from Great Britain by St. George's Channel... a bit River Styx-y. 'Course, being at the far west, Ireland ought to be the Land of the Dead. Styx means gloomy and I've heard Irish people describing it that way. Maybe all those guys visiting the Underworld just went to Ireland! (It means "heat/passion land" after all: very Hell-ish, Platonic prisoner-y.)
Wiki says "The gods respected the Styx and swore binding oaths by it," by George!
Wiki also says Styx is the daughter of Oceanus, the wife of Pallas and was the first to rush to aid Zeus in the war against the Titans. All roads lead to Britain, eh?
---
George means "Earth worker", which is great for the terraforming crowd, but might also mean "worker on Earth"?
| He was either a prophet coming from the wilderness to save the Chosen People or the destroyer of ancient divine wisdom. |
Isn't "the old way of thinking" the childish, legalist way of thinking?
Can Patrick be anyone other than a non-Jewish Jesus?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| So Patrick is Patron Saint George then? (Also with a Middle Eastern origin, they say.) |
I wonder why these patron saints are 'foreigners' rather than sons of the native earth. George was not only a dragon-slayer but a rescuer of virgins; one of the alleged fears of the natives vis-a-vis foreign types is the safety of their women. Maybe a cunning ploy to villify the indigenous druidic cult.
| George means "Earth worker", which is great for the terraforming crowd, but might also mean "worker on Earth"? |
Perhaps another snake connection, snakes being earth-hugging creatures. Behind The Name says
From the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) meaning "farmer, earthworker", itself derived from the elements γη (ge) "earth" and εργον (ergon) "work".
Any connection with gorgon I wonder. Snakes again.
A Gorgon was a monster from greek mythology, who had snakes for hair and fangs, and whose very glance could turn men to stone. According to Hesiod, there were three female Gorgons: Stheno, Euryale, and Medusa, the queen of them all. They were the Queens of the Underworld, and the one male Gorgon Nanas was Zeus' guardian.
In ancient Greece, stone depictions of of a Gorgon head (gorgoneion) were often placed on doors, shields, graves, or wall to ward off evil. |
This is very Middle Eastern in feel having a protective device set in the lintel that wards off evil.
| Ireland is separated from Great Britain by St. George's Channel... a bit River Styx-y. |
The Channel thus marks the limit of Georgian/earthly sphere of influence.
| Can Patrick be anyone other than a non-Jewish Jesus? |
Just what I thought, a legend shortly after his (legendary) life-time.
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