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AJMorton
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | That is scarcely the issue, AJ. The fact is that Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are so alike that nothing historical can be drawn from whatever trifling differences they now possess. |
That is what I asked. Why Irish if it might as well be Scots (if it is in Scotland)?
| In other words Gaelic place-names in south-western Scotland might as likely be via Scots Gaelic incursion as from Irish Gaelic incursion. |
Yes. Precisely. Might as well say "Scots Gaelic". We don't know enough about those incursions to safely choose one over the other. But if forced to choose one, we might as well go with the country in question. Cunninghame was part of Gaelic speaking Galloway in Scotland so might as well stick with what we know.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| We don't know enough about those incursions to safely choose one over the other.... so might as well stick with what we know. |
Presumably Cunningham has been anglicised; the official view seems to fall back on the refrain 'it comes from Anglo-Saxon'...
| The name signifies the dwelling of the chief or king, from the Saxon, cyning, Dutch, koning, a leader or chief, and ham, a house or town. |
Does the surrounding area boast a plethora of Saxon place-names?
There are other, more plausible-sounding suggestions:
1. | Scottish: habitational name from a district in Ayrshire, first recorded in 1153 in the form Cunegan, a Celtic name of uncertain origin. The spellings in -ham, first recorded in 1180, and in -ynghame, first recorded in 1227, represent a gradual assimilation to the English place-name element -ingham. |
Maybe the "Celtic name etc." is of Irish origin.
2. | Irish: surname adopted from Scottish by bearers of Gaelic -- Cuinneag�in 'descendant of Cuinneag�n', a personal name from a double diminutive of the Old Irish personal name Conn meaning 'leader', 'chief'. |
Could equally be that a Scottish surname was adopted from the Irish.
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AJMorton
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It is difficult. Since the district of Cunninghame was the greater contributor to the Ulster-Scots settlements, we may never know which way round it was.
Certainly the place was colonised by Irish and vice versa so I would sooner fall back on the rather weak "it's a jumble" conclusion.
The whole region is almost totally made up of 'Saxon' place-names. There is a little Norse and a little Gaelic but it is predominantly Anglofied.
We may never find the true origins of Cunning-Hame. It is one of those unsolvables. Academics tend to choose whatever version suits their thesis.
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AJMorton
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| Hatty wrote: | | 'descendant of Cuinneag�n', a personal name from a double diminutive of the Old Irish personal name Conn meaning 'leader', 'chief'. |
I would think if it was derived from Conn it would still resemble such a simple pronunciation. Con. Conn. If you see what I mean.
Cuinn looks like Quinn (Kwin) to me.
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Pulp History
In: Wales
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Wiki says "Cunninghame (Coineagan in Scottish Gaelic) is a former comital district of Scotland and also a district of the Strathclyde Region from 1975 - 1996".
So apparently Cunningham comes from Coineagan and the suffix 'ham' - amazing because if this occurred in England it would 'definitely' come from 'the homestead of the people of Cuna' or some such nonsense...... change the rules to fit the desired outcome....... but here it allegedly comes from some old Gaelic word, which the Angles learned and just added their ham to give a place rather than its previous name, and the next ruling party (the Norwegians) did not replace it, nor did Mr McAlpine and his Scotti chums deem to change it back to a 'Celtic' name.........
Seems the Angles either founded an awful lot of places around those parts, or renamed an awful lot of 'Scottish' places and nobody seemed to be full of the usual 'Celtic' fire and demand they be changed back to their original names forthwith........ mmmmm
_________________
Question everything!
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AJMorton
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| Pulp History wrote: | | it allegedly comes from some old Gaelic word |
I could be wrong, but in my experience in the lowlands it probably comes from a new Gaelic word for the old Cunninghame. The railways and tourism was largely responsible for inventing Gaelic words on the spot in order to give certain regions a more Celtic feel.
I would wager that the application of Coineagan to Cunninghame doesn't pre-date the 1970s.
But I could be wrong.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I presume you mean the eighteen-seventies. Which was the time of the railway-inspired changes. The nineteen-seventies was when the same thing was done by governments in the cause of political-correctness.
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AJMorton
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Actually I was being generous with going that far back. 1990s would be a bigger gamble but it's a more likely date. You should have seen it. All these phony, never before heard of, Gaelic place names cropping up in the most Anglified regions.
I mean...Newton on Ayr (New-Town on Ayr) can't have an old Gaelic name. It just can't.
But I could be wrong. Will look into it later.
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AJMorton
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | The nineteen-seventies was when the same thing was done by governments in the cause of political-correctness. |
In the 90s, in Scotland, we saw the railway stations take on bi-lingual sign-posts. Upper half was dedicated to the present name, for example Prestwick and the lower half was given to the newly formed Gaelic equivalent.
Will post some sign-posts later. Some of them are ridiculous so far south in strictly English places.
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AJMorton
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Prestwick is interesting. From my own research Prestwick was founded as a Burgh in the 12th or 13th century (though the settlement existed before this) and existing documents of the time did use the name Prestwick or variants. According to Wiki, this name comes from the Old English name for Preist's Farm.
| Prestwick's name comes from Old English, priest's farm. Preost meaning Priest and wic meaning farm. |
And yet there is a later Gaelic form, Preastabhaig.
I expect this comes from the Governmental imposed Gaelic translations of the 19th century that Mick mentioned (I didn't know about this). Prestick was never called Preastabhaig. And while that word may be the direct translation of an Old English word into Gaelic, it is not ancient.
Irvine, without mentioning my work, is translated as Irbhinn but this is complete nonsense. There is no historical document which gives a Gaelic name for Irvine. None. And since no-one knows what Irvine means, the translation of it is a bit suspicious.
In contrast, there are numerous sites in Ayrshire which previously had Gaelic names and many which still do. Ardrossan (Aird Rosain) and Knockentiber (Cnoc an Tobair) are just two examples from the top of my head.
| There are a number of place-names in Ayrshire and Renfrewshire which appear to indicate 'Anglian overlordship or sporadic influence in the area at a fairly early date', as WFH Nicolaisen states in Scottish Place-Names (1976). Old English bodl 'dwelling', ham 'village' and wic '(dependent) farm', are found as generics in a small number of place-names including Maybole, Eaglesham and Prestwick. |
There has been some confusion with modern Gaelic translations of Anglified place-names (Old English names translated into Modern Gaelic). Many think the sign-posts and OS maps indicate that the name of the site was originally in Gaelic.
A prime example of this is in this picture from the BBC.
[Original Caption: Many place names have a Gaelic origin]
Here the BBC are suggesting that the ancient word for Airport is Port Adhair! How can this be? It is a modern translation of an English word and not the other way round. Are they really expecting us to believe that Prestwick Airport was known as Preastabhaig Port Adhair in the 12th century? Or are they just being carelessly unanalytical? A bit of both probably.
Before I go any further, I just want to point out that Ayrshire is chock a block with Gaelic place names. But it is also full of non-Gaelic and it's fine to translate these non-Gaelic names for modern Gaelic speakers but the confusion needs to be sorted if people think there can possibly be an ancient equivalent of Airport.
Air and Port have ancient Gaelic equivalents. Airport doesn't. And Prestwick Airport was built in the early 20th century. It was originally called (I am guessing) Prestwick Aerodrome. It had no ancient name.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| I expect this comes from the Governmental imposed Gaelic translations of the 19th century that Mick mentioned |
This is not what I said. In the nineteenth century the railway companies were trying to boost tourism into unlikely places and Gaelicising names (along with the whole shortbreading of Scotland -- Waverley Station for Chrissake!) was only to be expected. When local authorities were reorganised in the nineteen-seventies, various archaic states (Strathclyde, Gwynedd etc) were given a re-launch. After that, the politically correct Celtic Revival went into overdrive.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| According to Wiki, this name comes from the Old English name for Preist's Farm. |
Any evidence of priestly associations apart from the name? (Pres in Welsh means 'brass' I gather).
Going back to our -inghams, I wondered about Fotheringham in Angus, a family name said to pre-date the Normans but whose origins are obscure, partly due to all the variations in spelling...Fothringham, Fothrynghame, Fotringham, Foderingham (relates to fodder, i.e. grazing/pasture?), Fotheringay (in Northamptonshire) and so forth.
Looking at the official version, if true it would seem that it isn't quite such an ancient name and doesn't predate the Normans but is derived from a French family.
| This family is from the parish of Inverarity in Angus, a race that settled early in the province and are said to have descended from Henry de Fedringhay who received the lands of Balewny, near Dundee, from Robert II prior to 1377. [Black: Surnames of Scotland, 1946.] | |
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AJMorton
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | In the nineteenth century the railway companies were trying to boost tourism into unlikely places and Gaelicising names (along with the whole shortbreading of Scotland -- Waverley Station for Chrissake!) was only to be expected. |
Ah! I seeee. Then I did, after all, know this. Or partially. Any other examples of the Shortbreading. I too can only think of Waverley Station off the top of my head.
| When local authorities were reorganised in the nineteen-seventies, various archaic states (Strathclyde, Gwynedd etc) were given a re-launch. After that, the politically correct Celtic Revival went into overdrive. |
Me and my chums all grew up in the former region of Strathclyde. We thought this was all very intriguing (Arthurian Refs) until we found it it didn't predate the 70s.
The Gaelicisation of modern English place-names is similarly conceived.
| Any evidence of priestly associations apart from the name? |
Yeah...but I'm not permitted to discuss it! ;) But yes nonetheless.
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AJMorton
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| Hatty wrote: | | ...a family name said to pre-date the Normans but whose origins are obscure, partly due to all the variations in spelling...Fothringham, Fothrynghame, Fotringham, Foderingham (relates to fodder, i.e. grazing/pasture?), Fotheringay (in Northamptonshire) and so forth. |
Fotheringall being the only recorded birth-place of Pontius Pilatus.
Hmmmmmm.....
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