MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Robin the Wallace to Pay the Hood (British History)
Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Very interesting work.

Is it not also possible that they are both versions of the same legendary figure and neither is historical?
Send private message
Bronwyn



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Very interesting.
Thank you for getting the rusted gears of my brain back into action. I can now sit back and think: "Hemmmm, could it be......"
Send private message
J Robinson


In: The Shires
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Wonderful subject matter!

This is totally my favourite kind of quest AJ; folklore is undoubtedly a form of chinese whispers that anyone can add to at any time, and is great fun to unravel.

Reading your introductory posts set me off on a hunt - mainly because of the Simon de Montfort reference.

I'll bring that up later, but for now, I found this, which might interest you:

It seems that lovers of Robin Hood have been hoodwinked for two and a half centuries by a false pedigree concocted by William Stukeley who invented a fictitious earl resulting in students being thrown into confusion by his inventive fabrications. He misrepresented the information provided in William Dougdale's Baronage of 1675, and then added families and individuals who were entirely fictitious. He concocted a marriage between Gilbert de Grant and Rohaise, a daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert. He gave them a fictitious daughter called Maud who he married to a fictitious husband Ralph fitz Ooth, stating that Ralph was commonly called Robin Hood. He then attaches the fitz Ooths to a genuine family who were the lords of Kime in Lincolnshire, giving the whole fabrication a false sense of authenticity. He gives a date for Robin Hood's death of c.1274, which has no foundation in fact and that has caused Robin Hood to be placed in the reign of kings from around that period.



This flawed and false pedigree was taken up by Mr J Lees of Nottingham who transferred William fitz Ooth into the custody of Robert de Vere which is wrong, and so the whole sorry state of affairs has gone from bad to worse. First Nottingham's candidate was Robert Fitzooth, and then it changed to Robert-de-Kyme (1210 to 1274 or 78). They say he fought at the Battle of Evesham in 1265 and later changed his name to Robin Hood. The Complete Peerage says, 'Robin Hood, otherwise Robert Fitzooth, the famous forest outlaw, popularly ennobled in legend as Earl of Huntingdon, never possessed that Earldom or any other title of dignity.'



Professor Holt has more to say and dismisses Nottingham's case very emphatically: -

'Since Mr. J. Lees (The Quest for Robin Hood, Nottingham 1987), has tried to revive Stukeley's pedigree in a revised form it may be useful to summarise a few of the salient errors.


First, the critical figure for both Stukeley and Mr. Lees is William FitzOoth who (Stukeley) or whose heir (Lees) was transferred to the custody of Robert de Vere, earl of Oxford, in 1214. In reality the William son of Otho, whose heir or heirs were placed in the custody of Aubrey de Vere, earl of Oxford, in 1205 and transferred to Robert de Vere, earl of Oxford, in 1214, had nothing to do with the family of Kyme, or with the earls of Huntingdon, still less with Robin Hood. He is well known as an official of the Mint, holding his office in charge of the manufacture of the royal dies as a sergeanty. By 1219, he was succeeded by his son, Otho son of William, who still held office in 1242-3. It follows therefore that 'Robert fitz Ooth' is entirely fictitious; so is the alleged link between 'FitzOoth and Kyme, and so are the grounds for seeking an original Robin Hood in the Kyme family.
'


http://myweb.ecomplanet.com/kirk6479/mycustompage0014.htm

Why would someone link Robin Hood with Simon de Montfort or the battle of Evesham? And does it have any link to the personality of Wallace? I think I have a hunch, but will have to spend a few hours putting my case together :)
Send private message
AJMorton



View user's profile
Reply with quote

J Robinson wrote:
...a false pedigree concocted by William Stukeley who invented a fictitious earl resulting in students being thrown into confusion by his inventive fabrications. He misrepresented the information provided in William Dougdale's Baronage of 1675, and then added families and individuals who were entirely fictitious. He concocted a marriage between Gilbert de Grant and Rohaise, a daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert. He gave them a fictitious daughter called Maud who he married to a fictitious husband Ralph fitz Ooth...(my italics)

Oh my! What a bloody scoundrel. Utterly damning. I too love folklore but wish I had more time to delve into it more often. Welcome to the hood-board.

Why would someone link Robin Hood with Simon de Montfort or the battle of Evesham? And does it have any link to the personality of Wallace? I think I have a hunch, but will have to spend a few hours putting my case together :)

And I will look forward to it with a passion. Nice work J.
Send private message
AJMorton



View user's profile
Reply with quote

There is some suggestion, contrary to my introductory post, that Robin was not purely an English legend.

Before the 1555 Abolition of May Games Act, the first Sunday in May...

...the citizens of Edinburgh foregathered at the Greenside, under the patronage of the magistrates, to witness the frolics of the famous outlaw and his band. Robin Hood and Little John robbed bishops, fought with pinners, and contended in archery; Maid Marian disported herself in a flower-sprinkled kirtle, with bow and arrows in her hand; the Abbot of Narent kicked up his heels and played antics like a Pantaloon; and the morris dancers, with their fantastic dresses and jingling bells, added to the gaiety of the scene.

Hmmm. The Robin Hood plays were a common feature apparently in pre-Reformation Scotland. I need to go and learn more about this.

Some questions though. What is a pinner? Is it the same thing as a Pricker? And Morris dancing? I had no idea that this was a traditional thing in Scotland as well as England. Perhaps it was the Scots' way of acknowledging that Hood is an English folk hero.

Additional: One of the few virtues of the St. Clairs of Roslin was their protection of the Gypsy plays, in particular Robin Hood. But as usual the St. Clairs never really lived up to their protective reputation and helped arrange a big killing of Gypsies.

According to a St. Clair family biographer writing in 1700:

There are two towers (at Roslin Castle) which were allowed them (the Gypsies) for their residence, the one called Robin Hood and the other Little John.
Send private message
J Robinson


In: The Shires
View user's profile
Reply with quote

And Morris dancing? I had no idea that this was a traditional thing in Scotland as well as England. Perhaps it was the Scots' way of acknowledging that Hood is an English folk hero. Additional: One of the few virtues of the St. Clairs of Roslin was their protection of the Gypsy plays, in particular Robin Hood. But as usual the St. Clairs never really lived up to their protective reputation and helped arrange a big killing of Gypsies. According to a St. Clair family biographer writing in 1700:
There are two towers (at Roslin Castle) which were allowed them (the Gypsies) for their residence, the one called Robin Hood and the other Little John.

This probably won't help further the discussion much but might be an interesting sidenote. I'm keeping it on the back burner in relation to where Robin and folkore fits in with the Templars.

There used to be a pub on the edge of the moor here, called 'The Hooden in a Box' and there was no sign to explain what this meant, so I did a little research to find out that this related to Hoodening, also known as Hodening. I wondered if it had any connection to Robin Hood, but later found out that a 'Hooden' was a kind of horse, still used by the local Morris Dancers - usually the one going around with the money-collecting hat will have this hideous looking thing and they scare the bejeesus out of little kids with it :)
There may be a connection though; I've since found more about the hoodening horse, although I still don't entirely understand what it's all about....

There was, or is, a curious custom in Kent at Christ-tide called "Hodening," the best account of which that I have seen is in the Church Times of January 23, 1891: "Hodening was observed on Christmas Eve at Walmer in 1886, which was the last time I spent the festival there," writes one antiquary.

Another writes: "When I was a lad, about forty-five years since, it was always the custom, on Christmas Eve, with the male farm servants from every farm in our parish of Hoath (Borough of Reculver), and neighbouring parishes of Herne and Chislet, to go round in the evening from house to house with the hoodining horse, which consisted of the imitation of a horse's head made of wood, life size, fixed on a stick about the length of a broom handle, the lower jaw of the head was made to open with hinges, a hole was made through the roof of the mouth, then another through the forehead, coming out by the throat; through this was passed a cord attached to the lower jaw, which, when pulled by the cord at the throat, caused it to close and open; on the lower jaw large-headed hobnails were driven in to form the teeth. The strongest of the lads was selected for the horse; he stooped, and made as long a back as he could, supporting himself by the stick carrying the head; then he was covered with a horsecloth, and one of his com[Pg 115]panions mounted his back. The horse had a bridle and reins. Then commenced the kicking, rearing, jumping, etc., and the banging together of the teeth. As soon as the doors were opened the 'horse' would pull his string incessantly, and the noise made can be better imagined than described. I confess that, in my very young days, I was horrified at the approach of the hoodining horse, but, as I grew older, I used to go round with them. I have seen some of the wooden heads carved out quite hollow in the throat part, and two holes bored through the forehead to form the eyes. The lad who played the horse would hold a lighted candle in the hollow, and you can imagine how horrible it was to any one who opened the door to see such a thing close to his eyes."

"Some such custom prevailed in the seventh century. In the Penitential of Archbishop Theodore (d. 690) penances are ordained for 'any who, on the Kalends of January, clothe themselves with the skins of cattle and carry heads of animals.'

The practice is condemned as being daemoniacum (see Kemble's Saxons, vol. i., p. 525). The custom would, therefore, seem to be of pagan origin, and the date is practically synchronous with Christmas, when, according to the rites of Scandinavian mythology, one of the three great annual festivals commenced.

At the sacrifices which formed part of these festivals, the horse was a frequent victim in the offerings to Odin for martial success, just as in the offerings to Frey for a fruitful year the hog was the chosen animal. I venture, therefore, to suggest that hodening (or probably Odening/Wodening) is a relic of the Scandinavian mythology of our forefathers."

Brand says: "It has been satisfactorily shown that the Mari Lhoyd, or horse's skull decked with ribbons, which[Pg 116] used to be carried about at Christmas in Wales, was not exclusively a Welsh custom, but was known and practised in the border counties. It was undoubtedly a form of the old English Hobby Horse, one universally prevalent as a popular sport, and conducted, as the readers of Strutt, Douce, and others are already well aware, with all kinds of grotesque and whimsical mummery."


Even better if the horse had ribbons woven into the plait, perhaps this has connections with the Crusades, when remnants of the banners taken into battle were plaited into the tail to ward off darker forces.

This practice of using ribbons as part of the decoration of the animal or costume is similar to that of English Morris (UK) dancers today (See Mystical WWW Arts : Morris, Mumming). Akin to the practice of Morris dancing, a 'Hodening Horse' was a common sight during the celebrations on November 1 and 2 in Cheshire (UK).

This was traditionally a time for Celtic celebration when the New Year began and spirits of those who had died were believed to return briefly. A man covered in a sheet would take part in the 'souling' (perambulatory dance and song through a village for food or money). He carried a horse's head and would dance whilst opening and closing the animal's mouth as though it were singing.


The tales of Robin Hood include a fight with Guy of Gisborne, a man wearing a whole horse-hide as a hooded cloak.

At one point in the poem Robin appears to swap clothes with Guy:

Robin did his gowne of greene,
On Sir Guye it throwe;
And hee put on that capull-hyde,
That cladd him topp to toe.


Capull-hyde means horse hide, horse skin.

Well, I did say it probably wouldn't further the discussion... :)
Send private message
AJMorton



View user's profile
Reply with quote

J Robinson wrote:
Well, I did say it probably wouldn't further the discussion... :)

On the contrary! Fascinating stuff. The Morris and Hooden point especially.
Send private message
J Robinson


In: The Shires
View user's profile
Reply with quote

ok - here's where we get a bit more juicy :)

Although Robin Hood games and plays appear to have been one of the most frequent kinds of summer festivities in late medieval England, only one fragmentary play-text, dating from the late fifteenth century, survives. The twenty-one lines written on the upper half of a folio leaf dating to around 1475 describe a series of contests or games between Robin Hood and a nameless knight. At the end of these contests, Robin cuts off the knight's head, then dresses himself in the dead man's clothes, putting his own hood on the knight's severed head, which he carries along with him. Thus disguised, Robin goes off to find his men, only to discover that they have been captured by the sheriff. A battle ensues, which Robin Hood and his men win.

A more elaborate version of these events appears in the ballad "Sir Guy of Gisborne," which bears so close a relationship to the 1475 play that some critics have taken it as the source of the dramatic fragment. In this ballad, Robin Hood dreams he is beaten and bound by two yeomen; when he awakes he takes Little John to search for them. They encounter Sir Guy disguised as a yeoman and quarrel over who should fight him; when Robin Hood wins, he stays to do battle with Sir Guy. Little John, in turn, goes off to join his companions at Barnsdale where he is captured by the Sheriff of Nottingham and bound to a tree. Meanwhile, Robin Hood, having beaten Sir Guy at archery , discovers that Sir Guy is not the yeoman he appears to be, draws his sword and begins to fight. Sir Guy wounds Robin Hood but is quickly killed.

Robin Hood then puts on Sir Guy's yeoman disguise before going to Barnsdale where he finds the Sheriff and claims as his reward for having killed "Robin Hood" the right to do as he wants with Little John. The Sheriff agrees and Robin Hood frees Little John. Realizing at last that he has been deceived, the Sheriff tries to flee but is killed by Robin Hood's arrow.

This ballad suggests how crossdressing can be provocatively and productively linked with transgression of socioeconomic hierarchies. In the play-text, Robin Hood effectively changes places with the knight he has killed by putting on the dead man's clothes, and pretending he has killed Robin Hood. This transgression of status hierarchies is rewarded with the release of his captured men and the vanquishing of the sheriff.

In the ballad, the disguising is doubled, first with Sir Guy pretending to be a yeoman and then with Robin Hood pretending to be Sir Guy disguised as a yeoman. Tellingly, Robin is described as putting on Sir Guy's "capull hyde"--literally stepping into Sir Guy's skin, penetrating his body and hence becoming him.

What is most striking about the crossdressing in the ballad, however, is that in a complex symbolic exchange both Robin and Guy disguise themselves as the same yeoman. Here knight and outlaw at different moments inhabit the same social body, one that, properly speaking, belongs to neither of them.


Now, that comes from an article on cross-dressing, (!) and I've removed the references to 'homo-erotica' as I think they distract from the main point here, which I see, is that Robin disguised himself in the 'Hooden' outfit in order to convince others that he'd killed himself.

This whole disguise episode may be relevant to why Roslin cherishes the memory of the 'character' who may not have existed, but who - in this respect of one who is disguised and pretending to have killed himself - commemorates something the Templars themselves may have done - what d'ya think?
Send private message
Hatty
Site Admin

In: Berkshire
View user's profile
Reply with quote

The tales of Robin Hood include a fight with Guy of Gisborne, a man wearing a whole horse-hide as a hooded cloak.

Your 'hooden' horse has a wooden horse resonance. "Hood" might have been 'wood' originally, as per our Guy Fawkes discussion. Pantomime horses (and hobby horses?) appear to go back further than medieval commedia dell'arte suggests, perhaps an atavistic reminder of the symbiosis between horsemen and their animals. Wearing animal hides or skins is more than a symbolic play-acting exercise, it means the wearer effectively becomes the animal, takes over its soul as it were.

At the sacrifices which formed part of these festivals, the horse was a frequent victim in the offerings to Odin for martial success

's interesting, horse skeletons were found in "royal" kurgans, the burial mounds of Central Asia.
Send private message
J Robinson


In: The Shires
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Yes I agree Hatty; the horse spirit element is an important aspect of the disguise, I feel.

The other important point is the social/class transgression considering the revolts and battles at this time. In the earliest tales, Robin and the sherrif were enemies simply because of what the sheriff represented.


Moving on a bit, Robin Hood was said to have been a companion of Simon de Montfort, earl of Leicester (1208?-1265) best known as the leader of the baronial revolt against Henry III of England.

Simon de M V was born in France, the son of Simon de Montfort IV, leader of the Albigensian Crusade.

This war threw the whole of the nobility of the north of France against that of the south. The wide northern support for the Crusade was possibly inspired by a papal decree stating that all land owned by the Cathars and their defenders could be confiscated. As the Languedoc was teeming with Cathars and their sympathisers, this made the territory a target for French nobles looking to gain new lands. The barons of the north headed south to do battle.

In the first significant engagement of the war, the town of B├ęziers was besieged on 22 July 1209. The Roman Catholic inhabitants of the city were granted the freedom to leave unharmed, but most refused and opted to fight alongside the Cathars.

The Cathars attempted a sortie but were quickly defeated, and the pursuing knights chased them back through the open gates of the city. Arnaud, the Cistercian abbot-commander, is supposed to have been asked how to tell Cathar from Roman Catholic. His famous reply, recalled by a fellow Cistercian, was "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." -- 'Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own.'[2] The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the refugees dragged out and slaughtered.

Reportedly, 7,000 people died there including many women and children. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Arnaud wrote to Pope Innocent III, "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand heretics were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex."[3]
It was after the success of the siege of Carcassonne, which followed the massacre at Beziers, that Simon de Montfort was appointed to lead the Crusader army.


After the death of de Montfort IV, his son received the claim to the earldom of Leicester, inherited from his grandmother. He went to England in 1229, and two years later his earldom was recognized by Henry III. He became one of the king's advisers and in 1238 married Eleanor, Henry's sister. In 1240, Simon distinguished himself on crusade in Palestine under Richard, earl of Cornwall.


Simon won a great victory at Lewes in 1264 and became master of England, which he intended to place under a form of government similar to that prescribed in the Provisions of Oxford.

However, he could achieve no legal settlement with the king and so ruled as virtual military dictator. His famous Parliament of 1265, to which he summoned not only knights from each shire but also, for the first time, representatives from boroughs, was an attempt to rally national support, but at the same time he was alienating many of his baronial supporters.

In 1265 his most powerful ally, Gilbert de Clare, 8th earl of Gloucester, deserted and with Prince Edward joined the nobles of the Welsh Marches to start the wars again.

Simon de Montfort was defeated and killed at Evesham.


Not everyone accepted King Henry 3rd's terms, (The Dictum of Kenilworth), after his victory at Evesham.

Many rebels took to the forests to fight a guerrilla campaign against him. Roger Godberd, who is one of many possible personalities who may have been the basis for 'Robin Hood' , surrendered, demanding all his lands back or nothing. The King would not agree to these demands and Roger once again took to the woods, a named outlaw.


I've brought all this up, because there is a reference to Simon de Montfort V in connection with the Templars and the Mandylion, which is in itself a 'grail' story, and I wonder if the elusive Robin Hood character of the earliest tales became embroiled in this story.

More on that in a later post.
Send private message
Ishmael


In: Toronto
View user's profile
Reply with quote

This ballad suggests how crossdressing can be provocatively and productively linked with transgression of socioeconomic hierarchies. I....Here knight and outlaw at different moments inhabit the same social body, one that, properly speaking, belongs to neither of them.

Can we please leave out this nonsense in future?
Send private message
AJMorton



View user's profile
Reply with quote

Ishmael wrote:
Can we please leave out this nonsense in future?

I see nothing particularly wrong with the logic but I am open to having my mind changed. But you must explain why my mind has to be changed and what you think it should be changed to. Just because Ish calls it nonsense does not make it so.

Whoops.....Jaq already changed my mind:

Now, that comes from an article on cross-dressing, (!) and I've removed the references to 'homo-erotica' as I think they distract from the main point here, which I see, is that Robin disguised himself in the 'Hooden' outfit in order to convince others that he'd killed himself.

I also see that she has done some reasoned editing too. Jaq, feel free to post academic 'nonsense' if you follow it up with some whistle-blowing analysis as you have just done. I thought that was one of the major purposes of Applied Epistemology.
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

and neighbouring parishes of Herne and Chislet

At last! A connection is made between Herne Bay and Herne the Hunter.

Brand says: "It has been satisfactorily shown that the Mari Lhoyd, or horse's skull decked with ribbons, which used to be carried about at Christmas in Wales,

Well now, either the gal herself used this for her stage name or some drunken oafs were sitting around in a pub inventing folklore and someone said, "Well, let's call it a Mari Lhoyd just in case anybody in the future takes this stuff seriously."
Send private message
J Robinson


In: The Shires
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Mick Harper wrote:

Brand says: "It has been satisfactorily shown that the Mari Lhoyd, or horse's skull decked with ribbons, which used to be carried about at Christmas in Wales,

Well now, either the gal herself used this for her stage name or some drunken oafs were sitting around in a pub inventing folklore and someone said, "Well, let's call it a Mari Lhoyd just in case anybody in the future takes this stuff seriously."


I'll vote for the latter...

But the Mari Lwyd is unique to this part of Wales. In its purest form (still to be seen at Llangynwyd, near Maesteg, every New Year's Day) the tradition involves the arrival of the horse and its party at the door of the house or pub, where they sing several introductory verses.

Here comes the bit I like

Then comes a battle of wits (known as pwnco) in which the people inside the door and the Mari party outside exchange challenges and insults in rhyme. At the end of the battle, which can be as long as the creativity of the two parties holds out, the Mari party enters with another song.

They always know how to spoil a good night though..

The industrial revolution and the rise of fire-and-brimstone chapel preaching had a serious effect on the Mari Lwyd. The parties had gained a bad reputation for drunkenness and vandalism as they roamed the villages. Many a sermon was preached against the continuance of such a pagan and barbaric practice, and the participants were urged to do something useful instead - such as taking part in eisteddfodau.

Or Morris Dancing...

There are many old traditions that we only see now, in a diluted form, in Morris Dancing. Black Jake springs to mind. Will have to look him up.

In some places, like Llantrisant, the pwnco disappeared and the Mari party sang only their arrival verses, adding Christmas carols to the repertoire. In other areas, such as Llanharry, Cowbridge and the Vale of Glamorgan, the parties interspersed English-language verses with Welsh-language rhymes.



nice picture here
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=72732001125598&mkt=en-GB&lang=en-GB&w=ff9abd2&FORM=CVRE

What's this Herne Bay and Herne and the Hunter thingy?
Send private message
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
View user's profile
Reply with quote

Oh, a stretch too far I expect. The parish in Kent appeared two paragraphs after your R Hood reference and we're always looking for a link between the two British folkloric gents. Though the real connection might be as recent as an ITV series put out a few years ago...any road that were the first time I ever heard of the mighty Herne the Hunter.

Actually it's a little further down the coast that things really start happening. In Margate! q.v.!
Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2  Next

Jump to:  
Page 1 of 2

MemberlistThe Library Index  FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group