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From The Teslarian
Yup. I getcha Mick. You said "Nobody else managed..." rather than "nobody EVER managed".
Nobody else [except England] managed to invade. Yup. I get it.
Mea Culpa (I have the feeling there will be a multitude of these).
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admin
Librarian
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From The Teslarian
| Ishmael wrote: | | TheTeslarian wrote: |
The Romans invaded. No getting round this really. I would love to see someone try! |
That's where I come in. |
I await with bated breath.
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AJMorton
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I will await with bate on a different slate (thread).
Cheers Darwin!
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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I would hesitate to dub the English incursions onto French soil "invasions"; the English nobility were hard put to it to know whethere they were more English than French anyway, starting from royalty downwards, and had a vested interest in areas in which they no doubt considered they held titular claims.
The infamous Albigensian Crusade - led by the English Simon de Montfort, though clearly of French antecedents - strikes a particularly sour note, piously crushing the heretics in someone else's country, entirely acceptable under the crusading banner, followed by land-grabbing; yet the campaign, despite lasting several years, is too localised to be called an invasion. Likewise Normandy, whose ports are uncomfortably close.
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TelMiles
In: London
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| Hatty wrote: | | The infamous Albigensian Crusade - led by the English Simon de Montfort, |
Hatty, I think you may be getting your Simon De Montfort's confused. The Simon De Montfort that led the Albigensian Crusade was a French nobleman, who, although he was the 5th Earl of Leicester, never really enjoyed that title, owing to King John. his son was also Simon De Monfort (6th Earl of Leicester), leader of the Baron's Rebellion against King Henry III. neither man was really English however, although the 6th Earl spent more time in England on his estates (and basically ruled England for a short while)
_________________
Against all Gods.
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AJMorton
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| TelMiles wrote: | | Hatty wrote: |
The infamous Albigensian Crusade - led by the English Simon de Montfort, |
The Simon De Montfort that led the Albigensian Crusade was a French nobleman... |
...and grandson to English nobleman Robert de Beaumont.
Simon's mum - Amicia de Beaumont - was English. In fact it was through her that he inherited the Earldom. Duel-nationality methinx.
You cut Hatty's quote a little short. She did acknowledge the French connection (Gene Hackman jokes should be left outside). See here:
| Hatty wrote: | | The infamous Albigensian Crusade - led by the English Simon de Montfort, though clearly of French antecedents... |
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AJMorton
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Dubiety of nationality is one of the issues being addressed. See here:
| Hatty wrote: | | ...the English nobility were hard put to it to know whether they were more English than French anyway...and had a vested interest in areas in which they no doubt considered they held titular claims. |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Yes, but you're all still missing the main point. The English (of whatever race or nation) were always invading France whereas the French (with the exception of a tiny incursion in the thirteenth century) were never able to invade England. This anomalously lopsided relationship should be of interest to all AE-ists.
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AJMorton
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Yes, but you're all still missing the main point. The English (of whatever race or nation) were always invading France whereas the French (with the exception of a tiny incursion in the thirteenth century) were never able to invade England. This anomalously lopsided relationship should be of interest to all AE-ists. |
You made the point - and gave a fairly persuasive reason why it isn't anomalous - earlier in the thread. Folk have just veered off a little but your earlier explanation is still there. Don't fret.
| Mick Harper wrote: | | England had truly become England when John lost the last bit of Normandy, ie it was a full nation state, with immortal borders. France hadn't. That's why England was able to beat France so regularly: it could never lose (immortal borders) but it could, whenever it chose, invade any bit of France... |
I liked your explanation and, more importantly, got your point.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Blimey, I'd quite forgot. Sorry 'bout that. So now let's extend the story by naming the sequence of nation-states. I'll get you started with Scotland first, thereby creating England second, which because of its nation-state advantages triggered....third....and hence fourth...
[As many of you will have noted, I am leaving out those other two early nation-states Japan and Korea because of technical reasons which you won't learn about for a good while yet.]
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | [As many of you will have noted, I am leaving out those other two early nation-states Japan and Korea. |
Then again, I don't think I believe in them.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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The evidence that Japan exists is pretty well overwhelming, I would have thought, but Korea, I accept, may well be a cinematic artefact created by the CIA in the days when China was both a mortal enemy of but unrecognised by the USA.
That is presumably why Korea nowadays holds all the cyberspace records, it is a cyberstate. Though whether it is a cyber nation-state is something that can only be answered by cyber-logicians.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Well Mick, my boy, what I expect I'd suggest, if and when I get 'round to suggesting it, is that these two actually fit right into your model. They didn't in fact emerge as nation states until they encountered the nation states -- which makes Scotsmen of the whole world then I expect.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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There's your next book eh? How the Scots Invented the Modern World. A best-seller north of the English border for sure.
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AJMorton
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There are a number of books with a similar title, and one with that exact title. As a Teslarian, I cannot help but marvel at invention but the Scots shouldn't have a monopoly over it.
...but they do, don't they?
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