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Bob Woolmer (Politics)
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Mick Harper
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Did you suspect the parents, Tel? The whole point of the case is that ordinarily one would naturally stick the parents in the frame but not this time. Because the circumstances, Ishmael, was that it was always reported that the child disappeared while the parents were having a meal with six other people. [And was still being reported explicitly so in Newsnight tonight....:"Madeleine disappeared around nine pm while her parents were eating a meal with..."]

What my mate realised was that we only had the parents' word that Madeleine was actually in the flat when they left (presumably alone) to join the other six people at the meal. This telling detail (which I am not putting forward as actually true) was not relayed to us, the gawping public, because presumably no reporter could bring themselves to question the parents' innocence.

Once that nexus is severed the child could have disappeared hours or even days before the evening in question. Perhaps we took our collective eye off the ball for the reason Hatty alludes to: that we used up our curiousity quotient on worrying whether we ourselves would leave three small children a minute's walk away while having a meal, it being a holiday and all. I think I would but then again I've never had children. Once your mind is fixed on that level of behaviour it is difficult to wrench it up through the gears to comtemplate killing one's own child.

By the way, Ishmael, did this make the news in North America? I remember the JonBenet Ramsay case was quite big over here. I guess baby blue eyes are a worldwide a-a-ah factor. Of course the parents were given an audience by the Pope which, if they turn out to be guilty, will put a spoke in the Papal Infallibility doctrine.
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TelMiles


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Yeah, I did Mick. Something just didn't seem right from day one to me. Mind you, if it isn't them, my instincts were wrong! (God forbid) I also make it a rule to suspect the closest person to any victim in a high-profile case. It happens too many times that it's the person making the appeals. Remember Tracie Andrews? I thought something was up with that immediately as well.
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Mick Harper
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Speaking of high profile cases, the Jill Dando case was a clear miscarriage of justice. As of course was Mike Tyson's rape conviction. It is obvious that whenever there's pressure on the police, strange outcomes are universally going to be higher than average.

However, I should point out the Applied Epistemological perspective which is that 'justice' is not particularly important in itself since it is the provision of law-and-order which is paramount. The sad truth is that a few innocents have to get punished for the greater good.
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Pulp History


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But wasn't one of the dinner guests supposed to have been the last person to check on Madeleine before the mother discovered her missing (is that correct English?? discovered her missing....). If so then aren't THEY a suspect?

On the hire car with blood in it, if the McCanns hired it 25 days AFTER her disappearance, then who had the car in between?? Was it hired out to other people?

And lastly, no body no murder......
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Mick Harper
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Yes, I noticed some strange comings-and-goings that evening....does one depute a dinner guest to check on one's children?...but I did not register this precise fact. Which of course brings us to another point: the Portuguese penchant for secrecy. Or perhaps that should read the Portuguese ability to keep things secret. We in Britain always take a haughty view of the US (and France's) habit of trying people in public before the trial, but it does have its uses.

The hire car business is most mysterious. I had assumed that trace evidence (ie Madeleine's blood) had been transferred via the parents but this does seem a little far-fetched. One problem I am having is that my chosen media (Channel 4 News and Newsnight) are so profoundly anti-tabloid that they tend to view the whole thing with distaste. Are other news outlets awash with technical exquisitions?

Where do you get this no body/no murder doctrine from, Pulp? Convictions without a body in Britain date back to at least the nineteen twenties with a famous case involving someone disappearing from a cross-Channel ferry. Which reminds me, if the parents are tried I presume it is tried in Portugal even though all the principals are British.
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Pulp History


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Mick.... I assume no body no murder, as in this case there are no witnesses to provide circumstantial evidence that any disturbance or altercation took place. There is nothing to say that this girl is in fact dead. Surely without a body a murder can only be presumed to have occurred when, for example, a couple are seen having a heated argument before dinner and then one party is later missing...... a motive is circumstantial evidence which is lacking in this case.
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Mick Harper
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Pulp, your view of jurisprudence is alarming: anyone who can dispose of a body would be able to get away with murder. Since a three-year-old cannot exist independently for any length of time then if there is sufficient forensics tying the parents to the disappearance of the child then they will be tried for murder. They are quite at liberty to argue at their trial that Madeleine is actually still alive because they gave her to a passing gypsy or whatever.
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Pulp History


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Forensics are a minefield .... a child living with parents will transfer genetic material both ways every single day. Clothes fibres from the child will be present on their clothes, car seats, bedding. Blood, sweat, saliva from the child will be on their clothes, car, bedding etcetera.....

example = 2 weeks before disappearance Madeleine has a nose-bleed, blood onto clothing, or tissue in pocket. Weeks later blood from clothing onto bedding. Later still minute traces on seat of hire car.

The only time these sort of forensics can be used as proof is when a stranger, who has had no prior contact, is found to have these traces on them, and there is no justifiable / reasonable explanation for cross-transference of the fibres/DNA sample.... ie Robert Murat's saliva is found in the McCanns' appartment - then we could say he had almost definitely been in there........ Madeleine's DNA on items used by her parents is hardly surprising.
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Mick Harper
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And which of these considerations would not be known to British and/or Portuguese law enforcement agencies?
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Pulp History


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Reasonable grounds to make an arrest are far below the burden of proof for a conviction, which is why they want a deal and a confession - they have nothing else.
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TelMiles


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A few weeks ago the parents said that they would stay in Portugal until Madeleine was found. Now, as they are suspects, they have spoken of their desire to return home. Odd that.
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TelMiles


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Oh look, they're back in Britain. Looks like a desire for the "quiet life" has taken over from finding their daughter.
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Pulp History


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As this discussion has taken the tone of religious fervour, I am not a fanatic for either camp, but agnostic until further evidence comes to light. I think the presumption of innocence until proof abounds to the contrary is perhaps being forgotten here.
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TelMiles


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We're all daily mail readers too.
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Pulp History


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How do you know she is a witch?

She's got a wart.

She turned me into a newt....... I got better.
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