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TelMiles
In: London
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Dolce et decorum est pro patria mori.
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Against all Gods.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Dolce et decorum est pro patria mori. |
"The old lie" wrote Owen.
That's WWI by which time the reality of trench warfare overlaid any misguided sense of patriotism. Did the PBI (and their families) really feel a glow of patriotic fervour, did they have any choice before the army became a profession? The officer class was bred by the education system wasn't it? But not the poor bloody infantry.
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TelMiles
In: London
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The outbreak of world war one was met with celebration both in Britain and Germany. There were even street parades.
It was the officer class that signed up first, but after most of them got wiped out in the first few weeks, people began to be conscripted.
The officer class were a product of the Empire, and the education system, as you point out. They believed it was both their destiny and their duty to enlist. I'm guessing they soon changed their minds.
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Against all Gods.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Tel, your knowledge of quite recent British history is much less sure-footed than it is for more ancient times.
| It was the officer class that signed up first |
No 'officer' could sign up because the whole machinery of army recruitment was overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands (of all social classes) who signed up during the first six months. The lack of officers was so marked that extremely elderly gents from Victorian wars had to be pressed into service -- though they had to be left behind when the troops actually went overseas. The concept of "warrant" officers ie made up from the ranks had to be introduced for front line service.
| but after most of them got wiped out in the first few weeks, people began to be conscripted. |
Conscription was not introduced until 1916, did not become a reality until 1917 and was still fairly insubstantial in percentage terms even by the end of the war.
| The officer class were a product of the Empire |
You mean we had no officer class before the Empire? A rum thought. Did countries like Germany and Austria-Hungary who lacked empires not have an officer class?
| They believed it was both their destiny and their duty to enlist. I'm guessing they soon changed their minds. |
Don't guess, man, consult the evidence. As far as I know -- and my knowledge is extensive -- very few changed their minds.
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TelMiles
In: London
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | Tel, your knowledge of quite recent British history is much less sure-footed than it is for more ancient times. |
I wouldn't say I'm sure footed in any time Mick!
| No 'officer' could sign up because the whole machinery of army recruitment was overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands (of all social classes) who signed up during the first six months. The lack of officers was so marked that extremely elderly gents from Victorian wars had to be pressed into service -- though they had to be left behind when the troops actually went overseas. The concept of "warrant" officers ie made up from the ranks had to be introduced for front line service. |
This is news to me, so I concede to your point. My point basically was tons of the officer class signed up, but obviously they weren't alone.
| Conscription was not introduced until 1916, did not become a reality until 1917 and was still fairly insubstantial in percentage terms even by the end of the war. |
Again, I concede to your point.
| You mean we had no officer class before the Empire? A rum thought. Did countries like Germany and Austria-Hungary who lacked empires not have an officer class? |
You've missed my point Mick, maybe I should have made it clearer, I'm not saying the officer class was created by the Empire, I'm saying our officer class at the time was, how could it not be?
| Don't guess, man, consult the evidence. As far as I know -- and my knowledge is extensive -- very few changed their minds. |
This would be a joke Mick.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| This would be a joke Mick. |
Mine or yours? You don't make it clear. The proper study of history is there to iron out our own foibles and prejudices. Because our generation is somewhat anti-war, everybody has this inextinguishable view that a) life in the trenches was insupportably awful and therefore b) soldiers regretted joining up. Neither of these things appear to be true if you consult the evidence ie contemporaneous accounts.
But of course we don't consult the contemporaneous accounts because that might conflict with our prejudices. Instead we avidly devour literary accounts by intellectuals ie people who for dramatic purpose contrast the initial enthusiasm and the later reality. And especially their own sense of disillusionment. It's just a genre.
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TelMiles
In: London
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Yea, I agree with you Mick in that they didn't regret joining up, and the joke would be mine. And I think your point about modern prejudices and the anti-war thing being just a genre is spot on. That was in the same area as what I was trying to say, ie people readily joined up and that there were parades and such.
I suppose we live in an arrogant age that thinks it's better than all ages gone before it.
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Against all Gods.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Remember to include yourself in with that generalisation, Tel.
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TelMiles
In: London
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I do, because, for instance, I think I'm better than you because I have an apple and not a moustache.
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Against all Gods.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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No, I don't think you do, Tel. Your political comments show a tendency to the "I am morally superior" position eg the Falklands. Every time you come up with an orthodox position, that is one you know is held by lots of other people, you should ask yourself, "Am I saying this because I am in a minority position as opposed to being in a unique position?" A minority position is just as orthodox as a majority one.
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TelMiles
In: London
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Morally superior? Where did that come from? The Falklands thing is surely plain to see isn't it? And incidentally, I meant the Falklands in the same sense as you did, the Argentinian dictator invading Las Malvinas to deflect from his crappy regime at home. I don't have a rock solid opinion on anything (historic) really as I said earlier. I find myself in a constant state of flux.
But at least I don't have a moustache.
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Against all Gods.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Having lunch with a friend of mine and he told me he'd just had a major row with his wife. About what, I enquired. Oh, the arrest of Madeleine McCann's mother, and me saying I told you so, he said.
This rather shocked me. Why did it never occur to me? (Mutatis mutandi, he was majorly impressed by my Bob Woolmer coup.) When he explained the circumstances which had aroused his suspicions and which were in plain sight, I was even more vexed and wondered why I hadn't got there. I decided it was because the 'tabloid' nature of the crime did not entice me in whereas the cricket angle of Bob Woolmer did.
Anybody else have any Madeleine experiences to report? A coupla things:
1. According to my mate, "It was the parents" was widely canvassed among his friends -- something I never picked up in the media.
2. The absolute outrage of women (wives, daughters etc) that my mate could even think it was the mother.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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The circumstances struck me as odd as soon as it was known the child had been left alone, at night, abroad. Mothers don't usually leave such a young child unattended in a strange place in order to go out for dinner, it seemed uncaring to say the least. Most 'career women' have an au pair or nanny who goes with the family on holiday.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | When he explained the circumstances which had aroused his suspicions and which were in plain sight, I was even more vexed and wondered why I hadn't got there. |
And what were those circumstances?
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TelMiles
In: London
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Tut tut Mick, you should ALWAYS suspect the parents.
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Against all Gods.
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