Did The Dark Ages Exist? (NEW CONCEPTS)

[Mick Harper]

And Pluto was the son of Saturn!

[Hatty]

Plato is said to mean 'broad-shouldered' in Greek; I don't know if this is completely correct, though it summons up all kinds of related associations with height and stability such as plateau, platform, and the symbolic concept of foundation or founding father. Plato = pater?

[DPCrisp]

[Ishmael]

[Ishmael]

[Hatty]

[DPCrisp]

So, d'we reckon pater is a rock, foundation, basis, progenitor? The guy who, to begin with, hands you what you need on a plate/platter?

What do they say about father?

father: O.E. f�der, from P.Gmc. *fader (cf. O.N. fa�ir, Ger. vater), from PIE *p@ter (cf. Skt. pitar-, Gk. pater, L. pater, O.Pers. pita, O.Ir. athir "father"), presumably from baby-speak sound like pa. [Etymonline]

Not very helpful.

father: OE f�der = OFris. feder, OS fadar (Du. vader), OHG fater (G Vater), ON fa�ir, Goth. fadar, f. Gmc f. IE, whence also L pater, Gk pater, Skt pitr. [NSOED]

It almost says Peter, but this passes without comment. (Note that Peter could be pronounced "pay-ter".)

---

NB. Etymonline goes on to say: The classic example of Grimm's Law, where PIE "p-" becomes Gmc. "f-."

'Course, all the Ps in Proto-Indo-European are reconstructed (i.e. surmised, inferred, posited), so Grimm's Law amounts to a tautology. All we can really say here is the obvious: P and F are cognate and German(ic) frequently uses F (or PF) where others use P. There is no evidence of a Great Consonant Shift here.

Spelling with -th- (16c.) reflects widespread phonetic shift in M.E. that turned -der to -ther in many words

Nonsense! Not that any cause of these widespread phonetic shifts is ever offered -- it must be a "law" that they just happen sometimes -- D and TH are cognate and we can not say where the original pronunciation(s) lay. D is a voiced T: it'd make sense for the H to denote that. Our strict adherence to one-of-two TH pronunciations does not apply to the acknowledged-to-be-unstandardised ME period.

spelling caught up to pronunciation in 1500s (cf. burden, murder).

Priceless.

[Ishmael]

[Ishmael]

If St. Paul was in conflict with Peter -- and Peter advocated Law as opposed to Grace -- was Peter literally a "Plato"? What did that make Paul?

[Hatty]

[DPCrisp]

Socrates means complete power!

So, what does Saturn mean...?

[Hatty]

Saturn is the father of Jupiter. Apparently in astrology where Saturn expands, Jupiter contracts... all very symbolic.

Saturn is also associated with lead. Plomb in French. Gravitas; depth. Ray said something about how the roof of the sky was thought to be made of lead in Mesopotamian culture.

[Mick Harper]

As Dan pointed out, Satur(n's)day is the only Graeco-Roman God in the British week. So it's a fair bet that Saturn is a British deity. Though to work out what that means we need to know the situation in other countries/languages. Who else has a Saturn'sDay?

[Mick Harper]

Here's an interesting thing. In Spanish/Portuguese (Sabado), Italian (Sabato), Russian (Subbota), Polish/Czeck (Sobota) they make this the Sabbath. Why on earth would Christian countries do this? [Hebrew (Shabbat)]

[DPCrisp]

Just means seventh day, dunnit?