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Varsity Blues (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Mick Harper
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Other way round in practice. There is an ever-increasing demand that soloists be pretty (which normally means young women). Their skill levels are secondary especially as the Far Eastern craze for aping Western tastes means that zillions of doe-eyed virtuosi will pour out of their music schools.

Meanwhile, for purposes of balance the rank-and-file will remain predominantly male. Such blatant sexism will go unquestioned because classical music is a world of its own, living happily in the eighteenth century.
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Hatty
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There is an ever-increasing demand that soloists be pretty (which normally means young women). Their skill levels are secondary especially as the Far Eastern craze for aping Western tastes means that zillions of doe-eyed virtuosi will pour out of their music schools.

The demand for prettiness is of course evident on our TV screens, even newsreaders stoically churning out autocues and questioning politicians have to be youngish and attractive, never mind presenters, but they don't need vast dollops of talent. How many people see a soloist for any length of time filling the screen? Orchestra members are, however, getting tired of their drabness; there's a rumbling about, heavens!, not wearing black. The conductor will be in jeans next.

Prettiness might even be a handicap in the stern world of classical music, you've got to prove you've reached the top by sheer musicianship without relying on looks. This applies equally to undergrads, young female students get their firsts for their aptitude not their gorgeousness...oh, hang on, that's exactly what university lecturers look for... If there were more women dons it might tip the balance towards male students. When you go for a job interview, there's nearly always men and women interviewers; so no sexism in the workplace then.
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Mick Harper
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You could not be more wrong, Hatty. Every time they test for it, it is demonstrated that we (all of us, it's the human condition) choose good-looking people over ugly ones. We do not do this deliberately, it's just our genes make it so.

Hence when the orchestra is auditioning people they 'hear' the pretty ones playing better than the ugly ones. This extends to women-selecting-women and men-selecting-men though I don't know how it works for men-preferring-women-over-men and vice versa.

PS It is this overwhelming preference given to looks that make me urge compulsory plastic surgery for the young. Though I have not yet reached the stage of mandatory uglification of the pretty (MUP).
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Ishmael


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Mick Harper wrote:
Other way round in practice. There is an ever-increasing demand that soloists be pretty (which normally means young women). Their skill levels are secondary especially as the Far Eastern craze for aping Western tastes means that zillions of doe-eyed virtuosi will pour out of their music schools.

I was using music only as a metaphor for the tendency for males to dominate at the extreme ends of the talent/intelligence spectrum. Perhaps in music females will dominate for their attractiveness -- though I doubt it -- as female listeners will as easily swoon for a male virtuoso (look at the fame achieved by male opera singers).

It should not surprise us that females are coming to dominate academia. What other result could you expect from an institution designed to reward mediocrity?
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Hatty
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It should not surprise us that females are coming to dominate academia. What other result could you expect from an institution designed to reward mediocrity?

Excellent though misogynistic point. It wasn't always thus, one hopes, without getting overly nostalgic; a degree is the equivalent to 'A' levels now, a means of procuring a fabulously well-paid job you wish. The institution aims to produce citizens who will work uncomplainingly from 9 to 5 without going on too many strikes, diligent bureaucrats, competent educators and the like; no wonder young men shy away from the prospect. But it's not until you're dissatisfied that you start questioning why a university education is inadequate. The questioning is the grit in the oyster.

Hence when the orchestra is auditioning people they 'hear' the pretty ones playing better than the ugly ones.

Excellent point, muppet. You're right about attraction influencing judgement but it can work the other way, someone who's ugly provokes compassion and the auditioner wants them to succeed, knowing that the prettier candidates have had a comparatively easy ride and will inevitably be popular.
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Ishmael


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Hatty wrote:
Excellent though misogynistic point.

Not misogynist. Truth is what it is.

At this present time, the evidence suggests that females, on average, are no more or less intelligent than men, on average. However, the "bell curve" is flatter for males than it is for females: There are both more male geniuses and more male idiots.

Nevertheless, the upshot is that, wherever excellence is required, men will dominate.

Excellent point, muppet. You're right about attraction influencing judgement but it can work the other way, someone who's ugly provokes compassion and the auditioner wants them to succeed, knowing that the prettier candidates have had a comparatively easy ride and will inevitably be popular.

Thing is, few people consider whether nature might know what it is doing. Perhaps there really is a (even tangential) connection between outward beauty and talent. Certainly world-class athletes tend also to be fair of face. Perhaps the same is true of world-class musicians?

But can it possibly be true of mathematicians???
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Mick Harper
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When I was busy climbing the corporate ladder, or in my other jobs, was I a useful citizen?

All I can say is that whenever I have had what society terms "a proper job" the best I could manage was to come home, slump in front of the box and then all of a sudden it was time to go to work again. The only other time I stopped thinking was when I fell briefly in love. I am told bringing up kids does it for you too.

A useful citizen I think is best defined as "will someone pay you to do it?". If they will then, the way society works, you're probably useful in somewise or other. The average intellectual is not paid to do what he does but then again the average intellectual is not a useful citizen, merely a frustrated intellectual. This is the Great Paradox. Nobody, least of all the intellectual him/herself, knows whether he is destined to be useful. Society, if it is wise, arranges for a whole tribe of them to operate on the assumption that one or two per generation will deliver the goods.

As a farmer am I not still?

Don't talk rubbish, dear. Farmers drive Range Rovers and watch pork belly futures on Ceefax.

Maybe I'm not an intellectual at all. Give me your specific definition of intellectual.

Well, my views on the dangers of defining terms are well-known but, generally speaking, if you belong to a group, you are a member of the intelligentsia and if you are on your own, you are an intellectual. But there is another step you have to take after that.

After all one does not have to sit on their arse to be intellectual.

Yes, one does.
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Hatty
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Not misogynist. Truth is what it is.
At this present time, the evidence suggests that females, on average, are no more or less intelligent than men, on average.

There are demonstrably different kinds of intelligence, though aptitude might be a more accurate term, quick-thinking decision-making and slow painstaking analysis are more or less useful in varying situations. It's how we rate the particular type of intelligence rather than the ability itself perhaps that counts.

Perhaps there really is a (even tangential) connection between outward beauty and talent. Certainly world-class athletes tend also to be fair of face. Perhaps the same is true of world-class musicians?

But can it possibly be true of mathematicians???

There could be a correlation; think of a classroom with rows of boys and girls facing towards the front, the teacher is very likely to focus on the best-looking unwittingly, as Mick pointed out, whether the subject is maths or music. The recipient of teacher's attention may blossom more than the fat kids with snotty noses and spots even if not endowed with natural intelligence by developing a desire to go on winning the authority figure's approval.
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EndlesslyRocking



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Actually, it seems that they want to raise the grades in computer science and math:

The BBC obtained an email sent several months ago by the academic standards manager at Manchester Metropolitan University, asking computing and mathematics staff to consider raising student grades.


http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/06/26/how-valuable-is-a-british-degree/
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Hatty
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Actually, it seems that they want to raise the grades in computer science and math:

My older son who's in his second year doing Computer Science has failed three out of eight exams; he has just started a year of work experience where he's set up his own programme enabling those less technically-inclined like his dumb mum to follow trouble-shooting procedures. Needless to say the company he works for will take the credit for his work but the point is that he's got enough expertise and initiative already though he'll still need to pass the exams in order to be employable.

Even if you regard a university degree as a job qualification it's clear that there's little job security and a consequent need for flexibility where any knowledge is useful; my son is interested in other subjects but is turned away by the prof if he isn't in the right department; university doesn't offer universal access.
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Hatty
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But there are lots of successful people that are not attractive.

How many of the successful people on your list failed to get into university or, if they did get in, achieved abyssmal grades? I was always told it's not what you know but who you know; attractive people are more likely to meet the 'right' people. I had a boyfriend who's Robert Plante's brother-in-law; if he'd stuck around in West Brom instead of going to uni and getting a job he could have joined the band and I'd be going out with the legendary Z.
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EndlesslyRocking



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Hatty wrote:
Even if you regard a university degree as a job qualification it's clear that there's little job security and a consequent need for flexibility where any knowledge is useful; my son is interested in other subjects but is turned away by the prof if he isn't in the right department; university doesn't offer universal access.

I heard this is the greatest drawback of the UK system - that you pick your course of study and study pretty much only that. Of course in our system, you can go to university for 4 years and learn a little of everything and a lot of nothing.

I wonder, in general, what will eventually end the credential racket? It can't go on expanding and enbloatening forever and ever, can it?
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Mick Harper
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I wonder, in general, what will eventually end the credential racket? It can't go on expanding and enbloatening forever and ever, can it?

The credits system is so useful in being able to push larger and larger proportions of the population through to a degree (it can be adapted so that 100 per cent do so which will be necessary when the school-leaving age reaches twenty) that it will go on 'expanding and enbloatening' until the whole academic system is swept away by some future Henry VIII.
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EndlesslyRocking



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Hatty wrote:
My older son who's in his second year doing Computer Science has failed three out of eight exams; he has just started a year of work experience where he's set up his own programme enabling those less technically-inclined like his dumb mum to follow trouble-shooting procedures. Needless to say the company he works for will take the credit for his work but the point is that he's got enough expertise and initiative already though he'll still need to pass the exams in order to be employable.


Can he re-take the exams? A lot of stuff that is tested in comp sci school is quite low-level. Code you'd never write in the real world - companies aren't keen on spending money to have programmers write functions that already exist in a decent canned form.

Programming is a good career if you like it. It's a craft that you can develop over the years. It's not like doing the exact same thing week after week after week.

Has your son heard all the hype about all of the programming jobs being shipped to Bangalore and Beijing? There was quite a ruckus about 3 or 4 years ago. I think it's died down a bit.
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Mick Harper
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I think the most successful population in terms of entrepreneurs-per-head must be the Ugandan Asians thrown out by Idi Amin and who arrived at Heathrow in such a pitiful plight that the wunnerful British passed the Immigration Control Act to make sure it never happened again.
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