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Scotching the Scotch : from the east or from the west? (British History)
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admin
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On the other site, Ray came up with an interesting idea: that Hadrian's Wall is Pre-Roman. This would in turn cast some doubt on when the Scots came into existence. The standard explanation is...

Scot, as in Scotland, comes originally from the Latin Scoti, the Roman word for the Gaelic people of Ireland who later (6th century A.D.) migrated to north Britain and gave that name to what is now known as Scotland.
www.wordorigins.org/errors.htm

But somehow I doubt it.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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This is not true. The word Scot most likely derives from the word Scotch, which is still used to describe the region's most famous export. Supposedly, the adjective Scotch is derived from the noun Scot, but logic suggests it is the other way around: that the word Scot derives from the word Scotch -- but specifically, the verb Scotch, not the adjective. How can we be so confident of cause and effect? Because the verb Scotch has a known meaning that affords us a clue to the true origin of the term. Here is how one dictionary defines the word Scotch.

scotch To block (a wheel, for example) with a prop to prevent rolling or slipping. block or wedge used as a prop behind or under an object likely to roll.
scotched, 1. To put an abrupt end to 2. To injure so as to render harmless. 3. To cut or score.
n. A surface cut or abrasion. A line drawn on the ground, as one used in playing hopscotch.

The last definition is obviously wrong. The second half of the compound word hopscotch does not refer to the lines drawn in the ground in the game but to something else entirely. This can be determined simply be transposing the noun form of scotch to the context of the game of hopscotch. What is the block or wedge in the game of hopscotch? The stone.

In hopscotch, the player casts a stone into a marked square. This stone blocks the path of the skipping child. He or she must hop over the stone and then stop and retrieve it on the return journey, without stepping into the scotched square. A scotch, then, is a kind of stone. But a special kind of stone. It is a stone that blocks, or -- better put -- a stone that prevents forward movement. Now, what do we find between England and Scotland -- or Scotched-Land? A wall of stones that prevent forward movement.

Hadrian's Wall is the means by which the northern part of the Island is scotched from the lower part. Hadrian's Wall puts "an abrupt end to" England and designates all things north of that border as "Scotched Land" or "Scotland."

So who were the Scoti?
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Interesting, but . . .the OED says, in order of earliest known recorded use {in braces}:

Scot: {late L} Scottus, {med.L} Scotus, {OE} Scottas, ultimate origin unknown.
scot: {Late OE} a customary tax levied on or contribution paid by a subject to a lord or ruler...
scot-free: not subject to the payment of scot... exempt from injury, punishment, etc.
scratch: {Late ME}
scotch: {Late ME} An incision, a cut, a score, a gash... {after Macbeth} wound without killing, (temporarily) disable... stamp out, put an end to, quash, bring to nothing... {late 17th century} A line scored or marked on the ground in the game of hopscotch.
Scotch: {late 16th century} contraction of Scottish.
scotch: {early 17th century}a wedge or block placed under or against a wheel, cask, etc., to prevent movement or slippage... hesitate, stick at; scruple to do
.


That is, Scotch = Scottish appears to be a late arrival; whereas a scotch = scratch (for reckoning taxes or otherwise: cf. score: to scratch and to tally up, specifically to tally up 20) seems to have older roots, leading to scotch = non-fatal wound and, perhaps, scotch = chock, hesitate.
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Jenny


In: Central Victoria, Australia.
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But I'd also like to think of "Scot" as "Skt". First word that comes to mind is skirt. "To border or fringe a particular area" (Old Norse: Skyrt.)
"Scathe" (Old Norse: skathi - to harm)
"Scot" (Old Norse: skot - tax)
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Ra


In: Finland
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On the other hand the Declaration of Arbroath says clearly that the Scots originated in Scythia. In other words Scyth = Scot.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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A confident assertion made in the early fourteenth century (the date of the Declaration of Arbroath) would seem to betoken a much earlier creation myth and the English one (I think) only dates back to the twelfth century and Geoffrey of Monmouth. And yet the Scotii tribe of Ulster are being referenced as early as the fourth century.

It would be interesting to know whether the Scottish Lords knew they were supposed to be the Scotii of Ireland and were slightly ashamed of such roots, though "choosing" to be Scythians doesn't seem much of a step-up.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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For goodness sake, Scythia is north-east of the Black frickin Sea! The Scots most definitely did NOT originate there!
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Jenny


In: Central Victoria, Australia.
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Are you sure, Ishmael? Don't we have a bunch of folk who came from the area between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea who then split in half, each taking their sheep and their tartan weaving techniques with them (4500BC). One lot ended up in Austria and the other in China. Please take the time to look at this small item. It could be worth your while.
www.sacredsites.com/europe/austria/halstatt.html
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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You could both be right. It's a principle of Applied Epistemology that "What is is what was" so, yes, Ishmael is justified in assuming that the population of Scotland probably didn't come from the Black Sea littoral but were always the native hoi polloi. But the actual AE principle reads ""What is is what was...unless there's clear evidence that it wasn't" and we have overwhelming evidence that ruling elites can come from long, long away. After all, the Black Sea littoral itself was ruled for yonks by Vikings from Sweden. So the rulers of Scotland could have come from the Black Sea...and it's ruling elites that tend to give their name to a country, not the hoi polloi. Though by the way, we ought not to forget that other old AE saw "As above, so below" which is to say that the Black Sea Scythians might be from Scotland!

There is no reason on the face of things why the name Scots should not have come from north of the Black Sea, and be cognate with the Scythians. As we have seen over and over again, long distance trade so often leads eventually to long-distance political control so it is perfectly reasonable to propose that the Scoti/Scythians specialized in luxury-cloth making and exported as far as they could go -- which might conceivably include both Scotland and China (and Ireland, of course). Let's fact it, tartans are fairly distinctive so them turning up in both places is perfectly acceptable for the purposes of preliminary hypothesis construction.

Ruling classes are much more likely to know where they come from than the rude masses simply because castes tend to have self-consciousness. But the situation in Scotland is a bit complicated because the clan system emphasizes that ruler and ruled are all one. Which leaves open the possibility that the clan-Scots (ie the Highlanders, Picts or whatever) are ancient rulers down on their luck, pushed out of the choicer places by the English-speaking lowland Scots.
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Ra


In: Finland
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In the Declaration of Arbroath, the origins and journey to Scotland are rather clearly described. This could be due to actual records having been kept, or specific spoken tradition being handed down from generation to generation. The point is, however, that even if this kind of a document often is laid out with big words and overall bragging about the nation, it mentions precisely the Greater Scythia (Maiori Schithia), and not Scythia, as an overall location.
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Jenny


In: Central Victoria, Australia.
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I stumbled across this statement (Funk & Wagnall) on a mission for something else.

Ancient Greeks applied the name Scythians to a number of nomadic tribes. The name was used either for the Scythians proper or Scolots, dwelling north of the Black Sea....


It says they had come to the Black Sea region from the Altai Mountains on the border of China during the 8th century BC. They invaded Media but were expelled and then were later subdued and largely exterminated by the Sarmations. The other group of Scythian tribes in Asia advanced into Bactria (Afghanistan) and in the 1st century BC invaded India, where they remained powerful for 500 years. The article does not suggest anywhere that the Scythians went to Scotland. I assume that Greater Scythia included both groups.

Did I tell you I am descended from the Buchanans of Loch Lomond and the McDonalds of Skye? Speaking of Skye, maybe the Scythians...
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Heigh ho, heigh ho, it's off to work we go.

One in five Scots has blood tie to ancient Iraq
About 20 per cent of all Scots have Iraqi blood, according to Before Scotland: The Story of Scotland Before History, to be screened later this year on STV and Grampian. Using new research into Scottish DNA by Professor Bryan Sykes of the Oxford Ancestors Project, the revelation that some Scots have an exotic set of Iraqi ancestors is also backed by his research, which traced the movement of early farmers in the centuries around 4000BC. It showed them coming from Iraq and ultimately to prehistoric Scotland
.Pick of the Day 200
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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There is no word Scot or Scoti or any derivative of sct in Gaelic.
They describe themselves as Albinagh -- people of Albin or Albany.
The Gaelic for tax, toll, duty, tribute is keech
Neither of these words appear to come from any European language.
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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About 20 per cent of all Scots have Iraqi blood, according to Before Scotland: The Story of Scotland Before History.

This gives strength to my theory that Gaelic is not an Indo-European language and is a derivative of Semitic Berber. It's all in the syntax.
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Komorikid


In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Charles Vallancey the Chief Engineer of Ireland in 1794 spent years studying the customs and antiquities of Ireland through the Gaelic language. Not only did he assert that the language was inherited from Eastern civilisations, but the Gaelic people were full-blooded Phoenicians. His opponents ridiculed Vallencey's ideas at the time because they saw his theory as politically incorrect at a time when the Act of Union with England was about to be signed
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