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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| On the other hand, Sindhis next door to Hindis (which also bear a resemblance to the Roma) suggests an organic relationship, a possible origin. |
We're back on water -- and horses -- again; the Indus, says wiki "forms the Sapta Sindhu ("Seven Rivers") delta in the Sindh province of Pakistan" and is the "bread-basket" for the Punjab ('land of five rivers') and Sindh; it also mentions that the Indus is one of the few rivers with a tidal bore, which of course is a feature of the Severn.
Up in the hills of Pakistan polo is still played, the quasi-military highly skilled sport which must have its roots in a genuine 'horsey' culture not limited to princes and scions of great houses. (Tani's reference to 'tinkering' made me wonder; what happens to the flotsam of a horsey military group which for some reason doesn't make the grade? Do they take to 'travelling' with their saleable assets, steed 'n' steel?)
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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Yes. Zucker means indeed sugar. Sucre is the French word for sugar-Zucker.
I don't think this is off-topic. This is the Linguistics board, right? Or shall we rename it to "social sciences"?
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Zucker means indeed sugar. Sucre is the french word for sugar-Zucker. |
Sugar comes from Arabic, cf. azucar in Spanish, though etymonline is worried about the 'g' (The -g- in the Eng. form cannot be accounted for). Anyone called Zucker or Zuckermann and its variations is of Jewish parentage, our very own Alan Sugar of Amstrad for instance.
[There may be a connection between sucre and sacred, sacré bleu/dieu.]
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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| EndlesslyRocking wrote: | | So which came first - the travelling or the tinkering? |
That's a difficult one to answer. There were stories of travelling smiths around for centuries, some still make a trade by travelling around and shoe horses at the owners' place, having a transportable
furnace run by propane gas and all their tools handy in a van.
If you ask those Travellers who still do "tinkering", they tell you they and their ancestors have "always" done this: travel and tinker and sell little hand-made knifes and whatnot.
I don't think the question can ever be answered 'scientifically' - it's an egg-and-hen question.
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| And I don't see myself as a liberal. I'm a completely apolitical person. Politics sucks. |
You will recall that AE claims that everybody adhering to the prevailing orthodoxy is always under the impression that they believe something which is merely 'common sense' or, in the academic sphere is 'supported by overwhelming evidence'. The above statement clearly demonstrates Tani to be a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. But her presence here also demonstrates she has a queasy feeling about it.
Some of you will have noted Ishmael's current journeying from an equal-but-opposite position on the rightist flank. Not that Ishmael will have noted it. But that's all right too!
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Tatjana
In: exiled in Germany
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| Hatty wrote: | | Sugar comes from Arabic, cf. azucar in Spanish, though etymonline is worried about the 'g' (The -g- in the Eng. form cannot be accounted for) |
Interesting:
Old Saxon dictionary:
*su-g-a?, as., st. F., sw. F. (n): nhd. 'Saug'; ne. 'suckle' (N.); Vw.: s. bini-*;
Hw.: vgl. ahd. suga (st. F., sw. F. n); E.: s. sugan*
su-g-an* 1, as., st. V. (2a): nhd. saugen; ne. suck
Right! What do children (and adults who have not tasted sugar before) with a lump of it? They suck on it!
(Practical Approach to Linguistics 101)
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-Gory at thasp, keener fortha karabd-
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Without Alan Sugar there would have been no THOBR.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Clearly.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Can you imagine that for some people sheer prosperity is not their aim for life? That they have an entirely different view of what might be more important - freedom for instance? |
Prosperity doesn't need to be their primary concern because their freedom is underpinned by it: they have prosperity everywhere they go.
"Free nomadism" is a secondary, epibiotic (if not parasitic) lifestyle, entirely dependant on there being a sedentary, productive population from which to obtain materiel and to provide opportunities to go wherever and whenever they want.
Nomads in general live alongside rather than on top of sedentary society and do not have this freedom: ask some Afar women.
| The essential thing about nomadic life is: you just cannot amass a lot of stuff (getting "prosperous") - it only hinders you travelling. |
Unless you concentrate your wealth into ever-shinier, ever-plusher caravans and 4x4s.
| Travelling is essential, it's the main feature of the entire culture - as is the tradition of self-employment as skilled metal-workers and traders (here in Germany they specialise in scrap trading). |
There, you've proved it. Travellers can not possibly have developed metallurgy and the scrap trade speaks for itself. Normal life makes the Traveller's life possible.
| There were stories of travelling smiths around for centuries |
Middle Bronze Age, in particular.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Irish Travellers are mentioned first in recorded history in the year 1175 AD, when Henry's scribes noted them as an distinct separate group, called Tinkers, speaking differently from the rest of the Irish.... |
But isn't it speaking Irish (by which I presume I mean English) that distinguishes Irish Travellers from Roma? So Henry was referring to Roma? Who are supposed to have left India/Pakistan circa 1000 AD. Blimey, that was quick. So much for staying in Hungary/Romania until the Mongols came by.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Up in the hills of Pakistan polo is still played, the quasi-military highly skilled sport which must have its roots in a genuine 'horsey' culture not limited to princes and scions of great houses. |
I don't follow.
| what happens to the flotsam of a horsey military group which for some reason doesn't make the grade? |
What is a horsey military group which for some reason doesn't make the grade?
The Normans were a horsey military group who travelled, but not with a capital T.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The -g- in the Eng. form cannot be accounted for. |
What? I thought G = K was stating the obvious.
| There may be a connection between sucre and sacred, sacré bleu/dieu. |
And between sacred and secret and secern, set apart, separate out. Sugar might be a sacred gift, or a secret process, or a plant extract. Or all of the above.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| So Henry was referring to Roma? Who are supposed to have left India/Pakistan circa 1000 AD. Blimey, that was quick. So much for staying in Hungary/Romania until the Mongols came by. |
And another (probably unrelated) question. Does roman meaning 'novel' in modern parlance (romance just means ballad, not necessarily a tale of chivalrous knights) have any Roma connection?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| EndlesslyRocking wrote: | | Does Zucker mean sugar? Zucker and sucre sound alike if you say them fast. |
As a boy, I used to love eating breakfast cereal on Saturday mornings. Breakfast cereal consists of a high dosage of carbs mixed with milk and then lots of sugar. My favorite part was always drinking the milk left over after the cereal was finished because the milk was super-saturated with sugar. Ahh...delicious.
Years later thought of the biblical descriptions of the Promised Land as flowing with "milk and honey". It occurred to me then that drinking sweetened milk might always have been considered a kind of special treat (after all, this essentially is what ice cream is).
So Zucker and Sugar: Related. But I suspect also Succour and Suckle. Breast milk has a certain sweetness. All of these words seem to associate milk and sweetness.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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We touched on this on the other site, but since it was in Loopie Land, I didn't quote from it.
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Somewhere in there, Hatty mentions melons, melon = apple and negative connotations of mal-, bad, and mel-, black. Not sure if anyone pointed out that meli = honey and melos = song: all sweet.
Hmm. Mel = sweet or bad. "Suk" = sweet (sugar) or weak (suckle, succour), which is kinda bad. A strange parallel.
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D'ya think lemon/lime is mel backwards?
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