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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | All right then.
| Wiley wrote: | | I don't think they did a lot of stone mortice and tenon joints in the Neolithic |
They're always going on about them. If you can discover that Stonehenge's are in fact unique among Megalithic monuments, your case will be strengthened no end. |
The mortise and tenon joint is an ancient joint dating back 7,000 years. The first examples, tusked joints, were found in a well near Leipzig – the world's oldest intact wooden architecture.[3] These were created by early Neolithic Linear Pottery culture, where it was used in the construction of the wooden lining of the wells.[4] Mortise and tenon joints have also been found joining the wooden planks of the "Khufu ship",[5] a 43.6 m (143 ft) long vessel sealed into a pit in the Giza pyramid complex of the Fourth Dynasty around 2500 BC.
Drawing of a wooden ship with annotations of hull elements.
Ship hull demonstrating the Phoenician joint technique of locked (pegged) mortise and tenon
Mortise and tenon joints have also been found in ancient furniture from archaeological sites in the Middle East, Europe and Asia. Many instances are found, for example, in ruins of houses in the Silk Road kingdom of Cadota, dating from the first to the 4th century BC.[6] In traditional Chinese architecture, wood components such as beams, brackets, roof frames, and struts were made to interlock with perfect fit, without using fasteners or glues, enabling the wood to expand and contract according to humidity.[7] Archaeological evidence from Chinese sites shows that, by the end of the Neolithic, mortise and tenon joinery was employed in Chinese construction.[8]
The thirty sarsen stones of Stonehenge were dressed and fashioned with mortise and tenon joints before they were erected between 2600 and 2400 BC.[9]
A variation of the mortise and tenon technique, called Phoenician joints (from the Latin coagmenta punicana)[10][11] was extensively used in ancient shipbuilding to assemble hull planks and other watercraft components together. It is a locked (pegged) mortise and tenon technique that consists of cutting two mortises into the edges of two planks; a separate rectangular tenon is then inserted in the two mortises. The assembly is then locked in place by driving a dowel through one or more holes drilled through mortise side wall and tenon.[12][13] |
The only stone mortise and tenon joints in the Neolithic are the Stone-heng ones. Unless Wiki is missing examples. I will do a wider search.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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There is a helpful group of images of Stone-heng images here, it includes an image of how the stones were fixed using mortise and tenon. It also includes an image from an illuminated manuscript of Merlin building the monument, and an early Tudor watercolour. It's worth flicking through.
https://britishheritage.org/stonehenge
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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It would seem that Stonehenge is unique but you're not out of the woods since (it could be argued) that the trilithons are the only structure that would need them. Even though it is clear that dolmens etc could have done with them if the technique was available. Although, having said that, what are the relatively modern examples of this woodworking technique being applied to stone? From memory, I think they were copiously used in gothic cathedrals by stonemasons. What is the modern way of stone jointure?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | It would seem that Stonehenge is unique but you're not out of the woods since (it could be argued) that the trilithons are the only structure that would need them. Even though it is clear that dolmens etc could have done with them if the technique was available. Although, having said that, what are the relatively modern examples of this woodworking technique being applied to stone? From memory, I think they were copiously used in gothic cathedrals by stonemasons. What is the modern way of stone jointure? |
I disagree, why would dolmens benefit from a joggle joint? They stay up by the weight of stone, and by the skill of the builders who carefully selected and fitted the stones together. I can't see any advantage at all in having stones tightly fitting by joggle joints. Are you suggesting that keeping out the elements would have been an ancient priority?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I am only suggesting that if the Megalithics were cognisant of mortice-and-tenon stone working, there would probably be evidence of it. I'm trying to help here!
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Thank you. Just trying to be clear about any refutations, it's all very useful as it forces me to be clearer. Clarity of exposition not being a Wiley strong point.......
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Just When You Thought It Was Safe...
Video: Prehistory for Antifascists - Dr Ben Pitcher at Stone Club December 2022
Ben Pitcher gave a fascinating talk at Stone Club's First Birthday Event on Monday. Ben is a reader in Sociology and the Megalithic Portal was there to record it (and drink some Stone Club beer). Ben's forthcoming book is Back to the Stone Age: Race and Prehistory in Contemporary Culture. Who are we? Where did we come from? What are we like? These questions are alive in contemporary culture. http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146415020 | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Here's a nice little problem to start you off in the New Year. It concerns this routine piece in medium.com
I'll just put up the original piece in full because the mystery is why such a very dull plant got noticed at all. There must be a reason, it presumably is a Megalithic reason, and somebody ought to be able to work out what it was.
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Procumbent pearlwort (Sagina procumbens) is common throughout Britain on lawns, banks and grass verges. It is also found alongside footpaths. The connection to pearls is not immediately apparent when viewing the plant, although it might have been thought that the seed pod or unopened flower was similar in shape to a pearl. “Procumbent” simply means that the plant grows along the ground.
Procumbent pearlwort has been associated in legend and tradition with Jesus Christ, as being the first plant he trod on when rising from the dead. In the Highlands of Scotland it used to be believed that the plant had been blessed by St Bride and St Columba, as well as Christ.
Traditions involving pearlwort include hanging it from the door lintel to ward off fairies. Another is that if pearlwort is inserted between the “toes” of a bull’s hooves it will confer protection against all ills on the cows with which it mates and the calves that are subsequently born. If it is eaten by a cow, anyone who drinks the cow’s milk will not be troubled by fairies.
Pearlwort also acted as a love charm, in that a maiden who drank an infusion of pearlwort would attract the man she wanted, and he would be bound to her forever if she had a piece of pearlwort in her mouth when she kissed him. You might almost imagine that there was a “Pearlwort Marketing Board” at work here!
With all these advantages, one might expect procumbent pearlwort to be a somewhat spectacular plant. Far from it! It is a mass of slender stems that branch out from a central rosette, with pairs of small leaves growing along the length of each stem. The plant can reach a height of 8 inches (20m centimetres) above the ground.
The flowers, which appear from May to October, are tiny and are borne on long stalks. The flowers consist of far more sepal than petal and therefore have little colour other than green. The sepals form a cross-shape in fours. The flower stalks droop after flowering but become upright again as the fruit ripens.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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New one on me, I didn't know Polynesian and Micronesian cultures used celestial navigation. Lots of other things but not that.
| The study by skyscape archaeologist, Alessandro Berio, has uncovered new evidence that the ancient Minoan civilisation developed significant nautical technologies to aid in the international sea trade, which is linked to the wealth and expansion of the culture throughout the Mediterranean. Due to its location, reliance on open sea navigation and international trade cycles were at the heart of Minoan culture. |
A small AE point. You may not have heard of skyscape archaeologists. Me neither. People trying to establish new academic specialisms tend to gild lilies more than somewhat so we're gonna have to look out for that.
| The Minoans were a Bronze Age Aegean civilisation on the island of Crete, which flourished from 2600 – 1100 BC. The term “Minoan” refers to the mythical King Minos of Knossos, a figure in Greek mythology associated with Theseus, the labyrinth and the Minotaur. |
I don't suppose it will be relevant to the story but personally I would
(a) put the Minoans at 1000 - 800 BC
(b) reject the Bronze Age tag
(c) ascribe the name 'Minoans' more to the machinations of Renaissance cod-Classics writers and Sir Arthur Evans rather than the Minotaur. But, please
(d) do go on...
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| The study examined the orientations of the palaces along navigational directions, where the grand rectangular central courts, oriented generally north south on the long axis, are considered the defining architectural characteristic of the Minoan palace construction. |
Perhaps I'm a bit slow on the uptake but 'generally north-south' is not my idea of 'navigational directions' though it will be fascinating to find out how they took their palaces with them to sea.
| The analysis showed that the axis of the Minoan palaces were oriented toward the rising or setting of important navigational stars |
A teensy objection here. If they're rectangular and oriented north-south, they cannot also be oriented to stars. And when people start talking of 'rising', 'setting', 'important' and 'navigational' stars, I reach for my bogus lists list. Though it may only may have...
| which may have helped sailors to navigate to the bustling commercial destinations in the Levant and Egypt. |
"Lookee there, cap'n, 'tis Andromeda rising."
"Aye, number one, steer three points to lubbard and we'll be in t'Levant afore ye know it."
"Aye, cap'n, but only symbolically..."
| The orientation of these palaces symbolised Crete’s special relationship with foreign trading hubs and the control that local elites wielded over specific sea lanes. | |
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| The study suggests that the Minoans used “star paths”, or linear constellations (known in traditional Polynesian star sailing as kaveinga) to reach cities in the Mediterranean area, many of which have evidence of Minoan artefacts and frescos. |
I have to confess ignorance on this. It would be churlish to point out that Minoan artefacts and frescoes are not in themselves evidence of Minoans navigating from Crete to these many cities in the Mediterranean area.
| An example of a “star path” is Spica in the constellation of Virgo, which has a direct route connecting Knossos – the largest Minoan palace – to the important trading hub of Sidon (in modern Lebanon). |
Well, if you select a city (from 'many') and a star (from 'very many') you should be able to come up with one pointing to the other.
| According to legend, Sidon is the location of Zeus’s theriomorphic transformation into a bull and subsequent abduction of the Tyrian princess Europa. The pair crossed the Mediterranean to Crete, where she gave birth to King Minos, who heralded the beginning of the Minoan civilisation. |
I was being quite unfair. Sidon's the place all right. More tomorrow when I've got my breath back.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Similar to Knossos, the central court at the Minoan trading centre of Kato Zakro’s has an orientation that aligns toward a major Minoan trade contact along traditional navigational stars, while being exactly oriented with the Etesian winds. |
Talking of getting one's breath back, how do you orientate exactly with winds, no matter how regularly they blow. Not, I would have thought, that you'd need to if they blow regularly.
"Been to Hampton Court lately, Sir Francis? "
"Can't say that I have, Sir Walter."
"It's oriented to the trade winds."
"Damnee, I'll get an awayday. Thanks."
| A rhumb line toward the ancient city of Pelusium (Tel Farama), at the mouth of the Pellusiac branch of the River Nile, was at the constant azimuth, precisely aligned with the central court orientation. These discoveries demonstrate the sophisticated navigational abilities of the Minoans |
But only if you're going to Pelusium.
| which may have included the use of a star compass similar to those found in the Caroline islands, north of New Guinea. |
I'm surprised they needed 'em.
| It also challenges the commonly-held belief about the limitations of open-sea navigation, mathematics and interregional trade in the Bronze Age. |
I wasn't aware we had any but I'm all in favour of beliefs being challenged.
| Further research is needed to fully understand the link between specific Minoan palaces and partner cities, as well as the celestial navigation techniques used by the civilisation. |
Further? Fully understand? Way to go, I'd say.
| However, this study provides a fascinating glimpse into the economic and maritime heart of Minoan culture, and the powerful role celestial navigation played in the rise of this ancient civilisation. |
It provides a fascinating glimpse into the mind of the modern academic.
| The study concludes that the central courts of the palaces were primarily aligned toward important star paths aimed at distant coastal emporia such as Byblos and Sidon. This research has the potential to shed light on the trade networks and cultural exchanges that occurred in the ancient world and indicate the celestial navigation was being utilised a thousand years before the first historical mentions in Homer’s Odyssey. |
Blind leading the blind.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Some minor interest was created in this exchange with a familiar friend/foe. I will re-arrange for ease of reading
John Welford
Hell’s Mouth, on the coast of Cornwall not far from Camborne, is where there are cliffs 275 feet high. It is reputed to be haunted by the sounds of a suicide’s cries. Many and varied are the tales told and written about The Mouth of Hell It was wild country in those days and not a few of the tunnels that run underground at the foot of the cliffs at Hell’s Mouth were useful for hiding smuggled goods of one kind or another.
A whole bunch of romantic tales follow, none of which have any bearing on the cave but which can be read here. https://medium.com/read-or-die/the-ghost-of-hells-mouth-2fdc76e6709a I desultorily answered
Mick Harper
Don't be too hasty about dismissing sea caves. They are found with such greater frequency in areas known to be associated with the ancient mineral trade (eg Cornwall) for this to be an accident of nature.
John Welford
Why would they be anything else?
Mick Harper
I told you. They are relatively rare in other parts of the world.
John Welford
Are you really suggesting that the smugglers dug the caves for themselves? Why would they, when “the forces of nature” did a perfectly adequate job?
Mick Harper
I never mentioned smugglers. Marine caves are rubbish for their purposes.
John Welford
One thing that did happen, however, is that caves were sometimes extended — partly to provide drainage for waste from coastal towns and villages, and partly to link to cellars underneath buildings, thus providing a route for the contraband and also a means of escape if the revenue men got too close.
Mick Harper
You’ve been reading too many bodice-rippers.
John Welford
And the mineral trade? Yes - another reason for extending and developing caves, but the mines generally went underneath the sea bed as opposed to connecting with the sea.
Mick Harper
As do mineral seams. [I'll elaborate on some of the points raised tomorrow to give him time to chime in.]
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You may recall we once dealt with 'wrecking', the habit of putting up lights to lure unwary ships onto the rocks where the crew can be murdered and the cargo half-inched. This is universally believed to have been a widespread practice of yesteryear, despite there being no sound evidence of it ever happening. Not once. This is because we demonstrated -- to our satisfaction -- that it is a virtually impossible crime to commit, certainly a wildly impractical one. It's just landlubbers living in peaceable non-wrecking areas love to believe these tall tales. Including historians and people of that stripe. Smugglers' caves are of the same stripe.
Consider. You've got a boat, a crew and a cargo of contraband. You are headed for a secluded cove in Cornwall. If it is one with a 'smugglers cave' it must be the pre-selected landing spot. You land. You have three choices
1. Your reception committee can take the contraband to the usual contraband hideout. You and your crew sail off. Job done.
2. The reception party didn't make it (or there wasn't one). You and your crew can take the contraband to the usual hideout, return to the boat and sail off. Job done.
3. For some reason the reception committee didn't make it, though there is one. You stash the contraband in the cave and sail off, leaving the reception committee to collect it at their leisure. Job done unless
4. The locals and/or the local Revenue, who know all about their local 'smugglers cave', care to pop along first.
This is a variant on Vikings-looting-monasteries. If they were worth looting, the local villainry would have popped along first.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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By the usual processes of serendipity, there is programme on BBC4 tonight entitled 'The Wreckers'. This is about the Devonians who found a cargo of Panasonic TV's et al washed up on their local beach. This is the opposite of 'wrecking' but notice the programme-makers are so confident that everybody will be familiar with and devoutly believe in wreckers they can use it in the title to drum up business.
Since it is part of the Timewatch strand, expect a whole bunch of academic talking heads sonorously describing the historical reality of it all. But forewarned you will be forearmed.
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