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Matters Arising (The History of Britain Revealed)
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Mick Harper
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My opponent scolds me for ignoring evidence but has a curious relationship to it himself. He posted this up this morning

The Church of Our Lady, Queen of Martyrs, and St Ignatius, Chideock, Dorset
This is the pilgrimage shrine of the Chideock Martyrs, in West Dorset

Seven Chideock men — three priests and four laymen — were cruelly put to death for their Catholic faith between 1587 and 1642. This church, one of the gems of English Catholicism, is a memorial to them and to all those who kept to their faith throughout times of bloody repression. It is dedicated to Our Lady, Queen of Martyrs, and to St Ignatius, founder of the Society of Jesus. It was built by Charles Weld in the grounds of Chideock Manor — home to the Weld family for 200 years — and finished in 1872.

Initially, I took it at face value and was mildly intrigued to hear that Catholics were still being put to death as late as 1642, but then I got to wondering -- given that not many Catholics were put to death at all -- how could seven of them come from the same village and be spread over fifty-five years. I then remembered that the Tolpuddle martyrs were the big names locally so...

Mick Harper wrote:
"Seven Chideok men ... were cruelly put to death for their Catholic faith between 1587 and 1642". I'm surprised by this. Got any details? Down the road from Tolpuddle.

and got back this

John Welford wrote:
I picked up a leaflet about the Chideock Martyrs and the church when we were staying near Chideock last summer. I'm sure I've still got the leaflet somewhere, but if you could see the state of my room it would not surprise you that I can't put my hand on it straight away! Chideock is in the far west of Dorset, and therefore not particularly close to Tolpuddle, which is on the other side of Dorchester.

Would a nineteenth century gentry recusant have the balls to invent martyrs? I dunno but...
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Hatty
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I looked up Chideock where we rented a holiday place a few years ago, in connection with the Weld family. The church that’s mentioned was my landmark for Chideock from the A35, very useful as the turn-off is a known accident black spot.

In 1802 the Arundells were succeeded by the Weld family of Lulworth Castle who in 1810 built Chideock Manor.The Welds were also Catholic and in 1870-2 Charles Weld designed and built the village's Roman Catholic church in an unusual Romanesque style. It is dedicated to Our Lady Queen of Martyrs, and St Ignatius and remains in trust to the Weld family.

Among other surviving relics claimed by this location is St. Thomas More's hair shirt, sent to Margaret Roper the day before his martyrdom and later presented for safe keeping by Margaret Clement. This was long in the custody of the community of Augustinian canonesses who, until 1983, lived at the convent at Abbotskerswell Priory, Devon.More recent sources, however, state that the shirt is now preserved at the Roman Catholic Buckfast Abbey, part of a Benedictine monastery, in Devon


The Weld family was one of the great Catholic families who bought the Lulworth estate from the Howards in 1641. The family origins are unknown (they claimed descent from ‘Eadric the Wild’, an indigenous A-S resistance fighter) and they are related to the Shirburns of Stonyhurst through the Duke of Norfolk, but the Shirburns’ last male heir, Richard, was poisoned and died, aged nine. The Stonyhurst estate passed to the Welds of Lulworth and it was given to the Jesuit order in 1794 in the aftermath of the French Revolution.

The area is redolent of Catholicism with all the Abbas places, not to mention Whitchurch Canonicorum, two miles from Chideock and with one of only two churches in Britain to have kept its relics after the Reformation (we had a holiday there too). Despite St Wite, aka Candida, being completely obscure until c. 1900, she is on the Dorset flag, aka St Wite's Cross

When the shrine was opened in 1900 it was found to contain a lead casket with the inscription +HIC. REQUIESCT. RELIQU. SCE. WITE (Here rest the relics of Saint Wite). The flag of Dorset makes dedication to St Wite.
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Mick Harper
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Interesting but not immediately helpful. I remember the holidays but not the local objects of interest. (I was on holiday at the time.) However

The family are related to the Shirburns of Stonyhurst through the Duke of Norfolk, but the Shirburns’ last male heir, Richard, was poisoned and died, aged nine. The Stonyhurst estate passed to the Welds of Lulworth and it was given to the Jesuit order in 1794 in the aftermath of the French Revolution.

This is the source of the Cuthbert Gospel for which the British Library paid nine million (taxpayers') pounds in 2010. Meanwhile the National Library of Wales' collection of fakes includes

Sir John presented a collection of some 1,200 manuscripts in total to the National Library, which divide into three groups: the 500 manuscripts from the Hengwrt–Peniarth collection; the Llanstephan collection of 200 manuscripts, including 154 from the Shirburn Castle library; and 500 Additional Manuscripts that he had collected from various sources.

Not to mention this

Among other surviving relics claimed by this location is St. Thomas More's hair shirt, sent to Margaret Roper the day before his martyrdom

and (from memory) referred to in the writings of their distant but proud descendant, Hugh Trevor-Roper.
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Mick Harper
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Anyway I kept the ball rolling with this noncommittal comment

Given the number of English Catholic martyrs overall, the chances that seven of them would come from the same village and be spread over fifty-five years is... let's say statistically small.

To which he replied
Mick, This link might settle your doubts! https://chideockmartyrschurch.org.uk/

Although there is a bit of statistical finagling it seems kosher enough and Hatty reminded me that the area is still deeply weird. Probably why my family chose it twice for hols. So I decided to (probably) end it with the serpent disappearing up its own tail


Which is here.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Both Chideock and Tolpuddle look like examples of a martyr narrative. No doubt because so many of the local folks were actually plotting with Rome and other foreigners.
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Mick Harper
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Yes, but that doesn't make them untrue. Nor necessarily that either played a part in the other. However you raise a good point.

For sound PR purposes, all political movements have to be 'home grown'. As soon as the 'hand of Moscow' (or whatever) is sniffed, domestic support is imperilled. Remember the Miners Strike getting funds from Gaddaffi? English recusants were all pukka English but nobody could ignore that Douai is not entirely in England, and that the big bucks were coming from Rome (or Romish regimes).

The Tolpuddle Martyrs are always portrayed as English as rosbif but the whole left-revolutionary movement from 1789 onwards had as much Continental as British roots, though the rootists tended to live in London! This is covered (though not very conclusively) in Rev Hist.

Iran makes a speciality of 'martyrs narratives' but you can't deny they've got plenty of them.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Father John Cornelius seems like an obvious fiction to Wiley. The secondary sources are all Jesuits, who take their material from a destroyed original written by Lady Arundell who abandoned the estate to move to a cloistered convent in the heart of Catholic Brussels, the Benedictine Monastery of the Assumption of Our Lady. The church in Chideock is dedicated to Our Lady, Queen of Martyrs, and to St Ignatius, founder of The Society of Jesus. It is Jesuit again. John Cornelius appears, although I am unsure, to have taken his name from the excessively pious Centurian Cornelius and acted in the same pious manner. He has no real backstory other than possibly called this or that, humble origin, comes from another Arundell estate, and is educated abroad by their funds, after returning, being hidden by the Arundells, and then being betrayed and executed, his body was returned and buried by the Arundells again.....So it all really starts and ends with the Arundells.
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Mick Harper
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...or the Jesuits. As soon as they were permitted to, they set up Stoneyhurst public school to train/educate the sons of recusants, and started to stock it with the usual

Revisionist Historiography wrote:
The British Library did not have to search for St Cuthbert’s gospel book, it came to them. Being the saint’s personal possession it lacked any fancy trimmings on the cover but that had not saved it. Pilgrims visiting Durham Cathedral in the twelfth century were, for a small fee, allowed to walk about with it in a bag round their necks until one of them walked off still wearing it. What happened to Cuthbert’s book for the next seven hundred years is unrecorded but it must have passed through many hands before the Jesuits could find some mugs to take it off theirs. For nine million pounds Jesuits are prepared to let the Word of God go. Yea, even unto Protestants.

Perhaps the BL might start getting some of their (our) nine million back by letting visitors walk around with it for a small fee. It won't matter if someone walks off with it, the Jesuits have got plenty more. Or Durham can look in his coffin to see if there's another one tucked away somewhere. "You never know till you look," as RevHist said about the missing panel of the Franks Casket, found fifty years later in a sock drawer. Although, funnily enough, missing socks once lost never turn up again. It's the damnedest thing.
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Wile E. Coyote


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wiki wrote:
Bede's stylistic models included some of the same authors from whom he drew the material for the earlier parts of his history. His introduction imitates the work of Orosius,[6] and his title is an echo of Eusebius's Historia Ecclesiastica.[1] Bede also followed Eusebius in taking the Acts of the Apostles as the model for the overall work: where Eusebius used the Acts as the theme for his description of the development of the church, Bede made it the model for his history of the Anglo-Saxon church.[74] Bede quoted his sources at length in his narrative, as Eusebius had done.[6]


Sometimes wiki is spot on.

The Council of Jerusalem/debate over circumcision is the Synod of Whiby /debate over tonsure.

Theodore of Tarsus is of course Saul (Paul) of Tarsus.
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Mick Harper
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Bede quoted his sources at length in his narrative

Nobody has got round to explaining how he did this. It's a long and winding road between Jarrow and Kew.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Bede had to explain the replacement of the cult of Augustus/Pax Romana by Jesus/peace on earth.

He did this by developing an origin, Augustine of Canterbury, whose mission, although it failed (it barely extended out of what is now Kent), povided a way for others, notably Theodore (Paul) and Hadrian (Peter) who would later follow. This mirrors Jesus' failiure at the time of his death. Who would have then thought that, 500 or so years after his death, Jesus would then be providing the spiritual inspiration for the mighty empire built by Emperor Augustus?

It gives hope to all of us that fail in life.
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Mick Harper
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Well, I don't accept any of this but I'd love to see if you can make it fly.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Wiley has invented a number of flying machines. I must give it a go.
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Mick Harper
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Academia.edu are in the habit of sending me papers their algorithm thinks will interest me but this morning's, by Gerald R Capon, fair broke my heart. It begins thusly

This whole project started in the summer of 2009 with a tourist trip to an island called Rømø off the South West coast of Jutland in Denmark; as you will see this led me indirectly to start writing this book.

He's clearly a man after my own heart

This work, if true, will make most current history text books about British history for the period from the Iron Age to the Viking invasions in need of correction. This may sound like a bold statement, but here goes.

He's a man after my own theory

I believe that there is irrefutable evidence that our history of British antiquity and the Anglo-Saxon invasions as it is written is incomplete at best and totally wrong at worst. Basically what I’m proposing is that, in England, we aren’t Anglo-Saxons and for that matter we don’t speak an Anglo-Saxon language.

Did he stumble across THOBR? Let's see

The first author was the famous historical TV presenter Michael Wood in his 1986 work the “Doomsday a Search for the Roots of England” which first brought to my attention the possibility of continuum in land occupation from pre-Roman times to well beyond the end of the Dark Ages. I bought the book remaindered in a discount book shop in Chiswick High Road proving that some radical changes in ideas are often ignored.

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. What's next on Geralds's road to Damascus...
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Mick Harper
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Stephen Oppenheimer's book “The Origins of the British” applies the same methods to the origins of the people in the British Isles, with astonishing results, that really upset the apple cart.

It should have but somehow didn't. Next!

Dr. Francis Pryor works are gigantic spanners thrown into the works of accepted history from the Stone Age to the Norman Invasion. They have helped me understand that invasions are rarely the replacement of one people by another, and that in spite of them people at the bottom of the pile stay the same, there is continuity in communities which can be measured today genetically.

So now you've got it all, me old matey! After a quick mosey through Barry Cunliffe and Michael E Jones, Gerald delivers his verdict

But for me, in spite of the brilliance of their works they miss one salient point which is the basis of this book. I propose that the Belgae tribes, that migrated to or invaded England from 125 BC, were Germanic speakers not Gaelic speakers.

So near and yet so far.
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