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Origins of Mankind (Somewhat Experimental) (Pre-History)
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Mick Harper
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Have a look at this map. It shows the earliest recorded dates for the appearance of Cro-Magnon (Modern Man) in various parts of the world. These dates are the earliest uncontested dates ie where the assemblage of fossil bones and human artefacts make it unarguably Cro-Magnon. To come on the Treasure Hunt you have to say something interesting about these dates (there is something very interesting but I don't expect any of you to be bright enough to spot that).

Those of you who have actually been on this TH should keep quiet (though you can interject the odd helpful comment if you are really moved). Those of you who know something about this -- bits have been covered in threads both here and on the Questsite -- should use your loaves.

Everybody else: keep up or else. Though I'm not sure what the 'or else' is at present.
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wizard



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Ummm!

Cro-Magnon man didn't trust the abundant life giving pastures and forests of North Europe, choosing instead to migrate to desolate regions like Mongolia?

Ummm!
Lions and hippos kept guard along the Nile keeping Cro-Magnon out of neighbouring Africa for 17000 years?

Urr!
Cro-Magnons were the first Humans to walk on water or they invented a big boat 32000 years ago?

Hmmm!
Was Cro-Magnon deposited at varying points on the globe by Aliens in an extended experiment to determine which would evolve the fastest? Of course Australia had to be moved as far away as possible!

Hmm!
Were studies conducted by Israelis?
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Keimpe


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If you look at the Asia and Australia numbers, it seems that man learnt how to cross oceans before crossing land. Either that, or the first modern men "sprung up" at different places.
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Mick Harper
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Were studies conducted by Israelis?

You're quite right to be suspicious of the Middle Eastern figure but for present purposes assume the figures are correct..
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Hatty
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If you look at the Asia and Australia numbers, it seems that man learnt how to cross oceans before crossing land.

The earliest human remains are from China. Crossing the sea to Taiwan isn't an enormous sea voyage but from thence to the Philippines (where the inhabitants resemble the Taiwanese in physique and language) is quite a jump...still, in a couple of thousand years, not inconceivable. Is it easier to sail across to scattered islands or a huge landmass?
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wizard



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1.Currently uncontested?
2.Not necessarily correct.
3.Creates the illusion that Human consciousness and intelligence began in the Middle East.
4.Neanderthal had been evolving in Europe for 400, 000 years and later co-existed with Cro-Magnon for around 15,000 years after their first arrival in Europe.

An upper jawbone fragment was discovered in Kent's Cavern, Devon, England in 1927. It is dated around 40,000 years old. It is not certain whether the jaw belongs to Homo sapiens, or Neanderthal.

Due to archaeological evidence of Neanderthal grave goods, it is clear there was strong emotional attachment to loved ones. Their conscious ritual behaviours demonstrate potential spiritual ideology and thus intellectual and reasoning capacity.

Neanderthal may be a title which conjures an erroneous primitive knuckle dragging image of a conscious intelligent human being which evolved a different gene string to suit their environment

Perhaps if Neanderthal was reclassified as a slightly different shape and different colour yet equally valid human being, the above map would be cast into the flat earth archive.
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Mick Harper
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Look, Wizzo, this is not a chat-thread, it's a Treasure Hunt. That means you stick to the path laid out -- though of course you are free to refuse to come along for the ride. Let us look at your latest efforts

1.Currently uncontested?

Well, we can spend the next ten years arguing about them or you can accept the dates as valid for the purposes of the Treasure Hunt. Obviously if you can't accept them for argument's sake then the rest of the Treasure Hunt will not follow. As it were.

2.Not necessarily correct.

Correct for our purposes. Arguably correct. Correct at the time the TH was first put together. Correct to start a certain ball rolling.

3.Creates the illusion that Human consciousness and intelligence began in the Middle East.

It does no such thing. These things are nowhere mentioned on the map or in the intro.

4.Neanderthal had been evolving in Europe for 400, 000 years and later co-existed with Cro-Magnon for around 15,000 years after their first arrival in Europe.

No doubt but irrelevant (unless you wish to make a claim to the contrary).

An upper jawbone fragment was discovered in Kent's Cavern, Devon, England in 1927. It is dated around 40,000 years old. It is not certain whether the jaw belongs to Homo sapiens, or Neanderthal.

Well, if they don't know which it is this would count as contested, wouldn't it? However no carbon dates are reliable for 40,000 BP. And anyway if this really were Cro-Magnon it would be rather more famous than it is. (That's basic Applied Epistemology.)

Due to archaeological evidence of Neanderthal grave goods, it is clear there was strong emotional attachment to loved ones. Their conscious ritual behaviours demonstrate potential spiritual ideology and thus intellectual and reasoning capacity.

Please take your Neanderthal concerns elsewhere. We are dealing here with Cro-Magnon.

Neanderthal may be a title which conjures an erroneous primitive knuckle dragging image of a conscious intelligent human being which evolved a different gene string to suite their environment

Please take your Neanderthal concerns elsewhere.

Perhaps if Neanderthal was reclassified as a slightly different shape and different colour yet equally valid human being, the above map would be cast into the flat earth archive.

Please take your Neanderthal concerns elsewhere.

I have been rather a stickler with you, Wizz, because it is essential that all Treasure Hunters understand that each level deals with one thing and one thing only. It is an essential tool of Applied Epistemology that the question be answered. Everything else is careful ignoral.
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DPCrisp


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I guess the Zagros mountains would pique my interest longer than the Arabian desert, but river/shore-hugging is probably best. Downstream means east into the Gulf.

By the way, I don't know that there is such a place as the frozen north until I get there. I don't know what there is at all until I go and look. I'll go around one headland at a time.
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wizard



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Something unique to Asia accelerated Cro-Magnons eastward migration?
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Kroew


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Life as we know it began in Asia and took 23,000 years to make it to The Americas.
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Without courage, wisdom bears no fruit. - Baltasar Gracian
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Mick Harper
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You must be looking at a different map, Kroew, the map shows it took a thousand years. And I wouldn't call the Middle East "Asia" given that it is unlikely that the precise find at that place and that date is unlikely to be definitive of the state of affairs on the ground. Isn't it just as likely that the actual start was, say, Bulgaria or Egypt?

Go on, Wizard....
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Mick Harper
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Whoops! Sorry, Kroew, it was me looking at the wrong map. That figure of 34,000 is a find on the Alaskan side. I have been dealing with Beringia so long I had quite forgotten they are two different places nowadays.
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wizard



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Based on the information provided on the map, specifically the yellow area, Cro-magnon must have utilised a successful mode of rapid transportation.

As the western frontiers take thousands more years to appear without unusual geographic restrictions, the transportation discovery may have been within the central Asian area radiating out North, South, East and West.

I cannot see a good reason for a continuous and relentless easterly push from the western boundaries. It makes more sense that central Asia radiated out initially and then settles for thousands of years.

The reasons for the rapid expansion and then the abrupt halt must be another area of discussion based on other evidences not indicated on this map.

The mode of transportation in my opinion, without having sufficient knowledge or evidence to the contrary would be either the camel or the horse. I would edge camel initially, easier to catch and keep, then perhaps thousands of years later the horse.
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Mick Harper
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Nice reasoning, Wizz, but let us just say, "Not necessarily." The travel time between the Middle East and Beringia only seems short because of our own vantage point. A thousand years is actually one helluva long time, you certainly wouldn't need anything other than sturdy human legs to make it in that time. Also of course you should take on board an absolutely crucial fact:
the figures we have are based on, literally, the scrappiest of evidence. Even assuming the dating is correct, a figure of, say, 35,000 BP for the fossils we have might easily represent a population that had been there in, say, 40,000.

However, in a wider sense you are absolutely correct. Middle East to Beringia in a thousand years is one helluva short time.
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Mick Harper
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You never read the posts, AJ! I told you that the figure of 34,000 refers to an Alaskan find. We don't have the figures (as far as I know) for Eastern Siberia.
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