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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Stop calling me Sarah.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Boreades wrote: | And are there any statues of Queen Elizabeth the First that might need protecting. It seems there is at least one...
| Tucked up in a niche on the wall of the church of St Dunstan’s in the West on Fleet St London, stands Queen Elizabeth I. It is London’s oldest statue and the only one remaining that was carved in Queen Elizabeth’s reign. The statue was carved in 1586 and originally stood above Ludgate at the entrance to the city of London. Statues to King Lud and his two sons, Androgeus and Theomantius, stood with Queen Elizabeth and can be found in the porch of St Dunstans. They too were carved in 1586. During the demolition ... |
(when the old Ludgate was removed in 1760)
| ... the statue of Queen Elizabeth was placed in the basement of a nearby pub for safety and was only discovered by workmen in 1839. They were removed to the old St Dunstans by Sir Gosling, who arranged for the statue to be put on the St Dunstan’s church which itself was re-built in 1833. |
https://www.intriguing-history.com/queen-elizabeth-i-statue-london/
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The only statue of Elizabeth I was only discovered in 1839?
No contemporaneous record appears to have surfaced. You'd think someone would have mentioned it somewhere, sometime. All I could find was "Made probably around 1586 and therefore during the reign of Elizabeth I".
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| The only statue of Elizabeth I was only discovered in 1839? |
Better check out all them Hilliard miniatures. St Dunstan's has come up in various forgery connections.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Does that mean King Lud and his two sons, Androgeus and Theomantius, were invented at the same time?
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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We might be on more-sure royal ground with the Robert the Bruce statue and rotunda near Bannockburn. Or perhaps not.
| Charles d’Orville Pilkington Jackson designed statue which was unveiled on June 24, 1964 by Her Majesty the Queen. |
That's QE2, not QE1. No suspicious pubs involved this time (as far as I can tell).
| Paint daubed on the rotunda with the words “robert was a racist bring down the statue†was discovered this morning. And splashed on the foot of the statue was “racist king BLM Black Lives Matterâ€. |
Was RTB a racist? Or is this the old Racist -v- Nationalist confusion? If we allow the conflation, RTB might well have been a racist, but wasn't it the English he was "racist" towards? The Battle of Bannockburn was on 23–24 June 1314.
One (at least) Bannockburn SNP councillor is appalled and heartbroken.
| Bannockburn SNP councillor Alasdair Macpherson described the damage to the statue as appalling. He said: “The comments painted on the statue are ill-informed. Robert Bruce pre-dated slavery. This is wanton vandalism. It’s heartbreaking to see. |
An interesting claim. How sure can we be that Robert Bruce pre-dated slavery? Or perhaps it is post-dated.
| The influence of the new Norman aristocracy led to the decline of slavery in England. Contemporary writers noted that the Scottish and Welsh took captives as slaves during raids, a practice which was no longer common in England by the 12th century. However, by the start of the 13th century references to people being taken as slaves stopped. While there was no legislation against slavery and Wales,[16] William the Conqueror introduced a law preventing the sale of slaves overseas. According to historian John Gillingham, by about 1200 slavery in the British Isles was non-existent. |
Let's (for the moment) take that at face value without question (ignoring previous Irish and Viking slave raiding). Yet by 1606:
| For nearly two hundred years in the history of coal mining in Scotland, miners were bonded to their "maisters" by a 1606 Act "Anent Coalyers and Salters". The Colliers and Salters (Scotland) Act 1775 stated that "many colliers and salters are in a state of slavery and bondage" and announced emancipation; those starting work after 1 July 1775 would not become slaves, while those already in a state of slavery could, after 7 or 10 years depending on their age, apply for a decree of the Sheriff's Court granting their freedom. |
Were these black slaves or just Scottish slaves that don't matter?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| by about 1200 slavery in the British Isles was non-existent |
What precisely is the difference between a serf, who can't leave the manor and is obliged to work half the the time for the lord of the manor, and a slave who can't leave the plantation and has to work full time for the massa? Actually there really is a difference, and not just between part-time and full-time but, since black slaves also had their plot of land, house, wife and kids, the difference should not be, um, exaggerated.
| while those already in a state of slavery could, after 7 or 10 years depending on their age, apply for a decree of the Sheriff's Court granting their freedom |
America was substantially colonised by Brits becoming voluntary 'indentured servants' for five, seven or ten years. Essentially serfs, in exchange for free passage and (some) other benefits. Oddly, Australia was colonised the same way, with free passage, plus five, seven or ten years hard graft only it was described as 'transportation' and wasn't voluntary.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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May I point out that it was me that launched the Marcus Rashford for Prime Minister movement some seasons ago? I admit I called him Loftus Cheek but I meant Marcus Rashford. They all look alike to me. Non-Arsenal players. In their big fancy cars. The police can sort them out. No such thing as a free lunch. Man City tomorrow. Not my first choice. Lucky I didn't cancel my Sky subscription but that's me, loyal to a fault. Tendency to drift as well but I think that's a symptom of old age rather than anything endemic.
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Chad
In: Ramsbottom
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Everybody loves a black Super Hero... At least they do at the moment, in the wake of Black Lives Matter.
Good on you Marcus... (Not to mention that big black guy who saved the undeserving right-wing yobbo.)
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| in the wake of Black Lives Matter |
So long as it isn't a wake. There's a difference between the Big Mo and the Big Sleep. As we saw with Brexit, and are seeing with Covid, a news theme can run indefinitely whether the public wants it to or not but the public has to perceive it to be important. Whether it is important or not is less important -- vide the waxings and wanings of Global Warming.
As I pointed out earlier, black lives do not in fact matter, not even to blacks in the sense that actually being killed by the police (or someone deputising for them) is in practical terms non-existent. But daily experience of racism does. The question then becomes does a certain relentlessness in media coverage translate into either policy changes or attitude changes. Experience is not re-assuring on the point but, as I also pointed out, this does depend to some extent on a change in behaviour of blacks. On this, experience is positively alarming since the development of a 'victim culture' goes hand in hand with sympathy for the victim.
I am generally speaking in the Black Power camp i.e. it is only when persecutors are afraid of victims that victimhood gets properly addressed.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | by about 1200 slavery in the British Isles was non-existent |
What precisely is the difference between a serf, who can't leave the manor and is obliged to work half the the time for the lord of the manor, and a slave who can't leave the plantation and has to work full time for the massa? . |
Yes, I thought the "by about 1200 slavery in the British Isles was non-existent" was just too glib to be true.
| Mick Harper wrote: | | America was substantially colonised by Brits becoming voluntary 'indentured servants' for five, seven or ten years. Essentially serfs, in exchange for free passage and (some) other benefits. Oddly, Australia was colonised the same way, with free passage, plus five, seven or ten years hard graft only it was described as 'transportation' and wasn't voluntary. |
Interesting choice of the word "voluntary", and the choices people had available to them. As in, people chose to commit a crime that had deportation as a likely or potential outcome. For some, that might have been a good choice, worth the risks (English business model).
But when your landlord forcibly repossesses your rented house or tythe cottage, and "offers" you a one-way boat trip, plus a few years as an "indented servant" (let's not call it slavery), it's a different kind of choice (Scottish business model).
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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Some grimly reassuring news from Leicester?
| Leicester East MP Claudia Webbe says a campaign to remove the statue of Mahatma Gandhi risks being a distraction to the Black Lives Matter movement. |
What kind of distraction?
| A 6,000 name petition is calling for the sculpture of the Indian leader and civil rights campaigner to be taken down from the plinth in Belgrave Road where it has stood since 2009. The petition was launched after a statue of Bristol slaver Edward Colston was toppled during a recent Black Lives Matters protest and dumped in the city’s harbour. |
What's he done wrong now?
| The organisers of the Gandhi statue petition said he was a "fascist, racist and sexual predator" who brought "inconsolable suffering" to millions of people during the partition of India before his assassination in January 1948. |
Why is it grimly reassuring? I'm grimly reassured that it's nothing personal, Black Lives Matter doesn't seem to like some Indian statues any more than they like some White statues.
But I'm a bit confused because (from memory) I thought Gandhi had warned the partition of India would be a disaster, and he was assassinated by a pro-partition person? Wrong?
Plus distant memories (rather vague now) of Martin Luther King (much an admirer of Gandhi and his peaceful protest methods) -v- Malcolm X who thought differently. Perhaps people within the Black Lives Matter movement have the same issues now, and can be found at many points on a "Martin Luther King -v- Malcolm X" dimension (peaceful -v- violent protest).
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Interesting choice of the word "voluntary", and the choices people had available to them. As in, people chose to commit a crime that had deportation as a likely or potential outcome. For some, that might have been a good choice, worth the risks (English business model). |
This extending of liberal values into the past drives me nuts -- as well as breaking our 'What is is what was' rule. There was never a time in England (as far as we know) when life was different from what it is today i.e. everyone has the choice to be a law abiding citizen or a criminal. The punishments are different but merely represent what is best to deter making the criminal choice.
| But when your landlord forcibly repossesses your rented house or tythe cottage, and "offers" you a one-way boat trip, plus a few years as an "indented servant" (let's not call it slavery), it's a different kind of choice (Scottish business model). |
O Lord, it's the highland clearances (o.n.o.). If you rent a house you may get evicted. Then, now and at all times in between. What you do if you are is up to you then, now and at all times in between. Given what life was like in the chronically overpopulated but chronically underdeveloped parts of Scotland (and for that matter Ireland) going the indentured route is an excellent option to consider. Or do something else.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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I think you will find he was Hindu nationalist with a statue in an English town with a large Muslim population.
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Grant
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Plus when Gandhi started his campaign in South Africa for coloureds to be allowed to travel in the same railway class as white people, he didn't want to share his carriage with the blicks, a fine distinction which Dickie Attenborough ignored in the film
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Grant wrote: | | Plus when Gandhi started his campaign in South Africa for coloureds to be allowed to travel in the same railway class as white people, he didn't want to share his carriage with the blicks, a fine distinction which Dickie Attenborough ignored in the film |
Would it have not been a touch arrogant for Gandhi to assume leadership for this "we are all equal" rainbow nation type of campaign, and would it have been embraced by all on a non violent basis?
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