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As I was going to St. Ives (British History)
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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So this must be why the seventh son of a seventh son is thought to have magical powers.


I suppose Phi, or either of the segments to each side of the cut is a "son of Seven". Castor and Pollux are the Sons of Seven; Sons of Heaven.
NB. Seven is the Virgin Number: a Son of Seven is the Son of the Virgin.
(Heaven is a Virgin? That's autogenesis again.)

The Whole is divided into 1 and Phi. Seventh son of the seventh son = the son of Phi? Phi Squared?
Phi Squared = Phi + 1 = the undivided Whole. (With integers and 7s, the undivided whole is 10. Ten means Zeus.)

NB. The precision isn't great, but Pi ~ 22/7, Phi ~ 11/7.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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I would like to locate that map I originally referenced. I've not been able to find anything similar as yet.

Is this it?

http://www.stone-circles.org.uk/stone/mapgb.gif

I am wondering if anyone here is familiar with "The Nine Ladies" stone circle and whether this formation might be close to the Merry Maidens we were initially discussing.


The one in the middle (Derbyshire)? No. Miles from the Merry Maidens in Cornwall. Look here:
http://www.megalith.ukf.net/bigmap.htm.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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There are 3 St. Ives in England:
i) Cambridgeshire, on the Great Ouse.
ii) Dorset, sleepy retirement village near the New Forest.
iii) Cornwall, on the coast
.

There are three Troys in England
i) On the Great Ouse (according to Wilkens)
ii) Dorset, sleepy hamlet near the New Forest
iii) Scilly Isles, off the coast of Cornwall.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Thanks, Dan! Great job.

Now if you read that original Thread, Steven Tonkin essentially demonstrated that the whole Pleiades idea doesn't hold up whatsoever. However, reading it all a second time I noticed that, once again, we have a stone circle here that is associated with breaking the Sabbath.

That, to my count, is at least three stone circles we've met with where the stones are said to be former humans, transformed into stones, for violating some Sabbath prohibition (in this case, dancing on Sunday). And as you say, these stones are miles and miles away from the others -- yet the same story is told of all.

I think the implication is clear. These stones were associated with dancing and, specifically, dancing to commemorate the Pagan Sabbath. When was the Pagan Sabbath? Well Sunday of course. Chrstianity, after all, is just paganism dressed up in Jewish clothes. Sunday was always the Sabbath in Europe and remained the Sabbath after the rise of official Christianity.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Ishmael wrote:
These stones were associated with dancing and, specifically, dancing to commorate the Pagan Sabbath. When was the Pagan Sabbath? Well Sunday of course.

How do you know the pagan sabbath was Sunday, rather than Saturday, which is the traditional, i.e. Jewish, sabbath? According to the dictionary, Saturday is "Saturn's" day but could it not be "satyr's" day, which would tie in with dancing and Dionysian cult and stones.

Sabbath comes from shabat which is derived from the Hebrew word shev, meaning 'sit'. I wonder if there's any connection with Shiva, the god of destruction and creation and preservation, who is usually associated with the Shiva linga, a phallic symbol, which reminds me of the standing stones (again). A bit far-fetched, admittedly - Shiva is also sometimes a flaming pillar and does a fair bit of dancing.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hatty wrote:
How do you know the pagan sabbath was Sunday, rather than Saturday, which is the traditional, i.e. Jewish, sabbath?

I don't know, of course. I just assume that the legends are correct -- that those who danced around the stones did so on the Christian Sabbath and, as I see Christianity as essentially Pagan in every sense, I also assume that what is is what was.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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All we know about the Sabbath is that it was the seventh day.

Forgot to mention that sheva is Hebrew for seven.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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I think the implication is clear. These stones were associated with dancing and, specifically, dancing to commemorate the Pagan Sabbath.

Or, to put it the other way about: the stones were associated with paganism and wrong-doing... and such pagan behaviour as dancing on the Lord's Day is a blasphemy fitting both the punishment and the configuration of the stones. (It seems there was a time when any kind of free expression and carnal desire or any kind was denounced as paganism whether consciously intended that way or not. {Of course, in the sense of being an expression of a natural impulse, that is precisely what it was!})

When was the Pagan Sabbath?

Funnily enough, I thought about this the other day. I just read something about watches on ship when the sailors had no duties and could lounge around: Wednesday afternoon was one of them. Back in the days of early closing, the shops were shut in the afternoon, typically on Wednesdays. The traditional day for sports fixtures rather than lectures at British universities is/was Wednesday.

It seems there is a tradition for the Day of Woden, the principal god, to be a day of rest. Sunday is very much the same idea.

Wikipedia says "By tradition derived from ancient Jews, Saturday is the last day of the week. That convention remains universally standard in the United States. In Europe, for several decades, many people have considered Saturday the sixth (penultimate) day of the week, and Sunday the last. This current European labour-orientated convention has been formalized by ISO 8601. However, the three monotheist religions are in agreement that Saturday is the last day of the week. In Islamic countries, Fridays are holidays, however they are considered as the sixth days of the week."
...but this flies right in the face of the obvious truth that traditionally, not just for several decades, Sunday is the day of rest: by (Christian) definition the seventh day. {The day of the cut, the end of the week... celebrating the Sun, the masculine, born i.e. severed from the Virgin Mother...}

At least in Neo-Pagan terms, the Sabbats are the Solstices, Equinoxes and Cross-Quarter Days: there isn't a weekly sabbath at all.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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According to the dictionary, Saturday is "Saturn's" day but could it not be "satyr's" day, which would tie in with dancing and Dionysian cult and stones.

This gets a bit confusing. Saturn is identified with Chronos, Father Time. (Makes sense for Time to denote the end of the week.) Not to be confused with Cronus the Titan, father of Zeus, they say. But it looks like no accident that Chronos and Cronus are conflated. Cronus ended the previous regime and heralded the Golden Age. Then his regime was superseded by Olympian Zeus. Saturn is an agrarian fertility God; Cronus reaps the masculine seed from the body of the god, whether that's ears of corn or the testicles of Uranus {whose virility caused the trouble in the first place by giving Gaia the pain of bearing children}; agriculture, seasonality and time are inseparable; Saturnalia is a harvest celebration.

They don't know what Saturn or satyr means. They seem to be opposites since the satyrs represent wilderness and wildness... but that is just what you get at the end of the agricultural cycle: the regimented work is over, the harvest is in, everyone celebrates, the tilled ground is no longer productive. The connection seems natural to me. It's likely that Saturn means satyr and vice versa. Saturn = t_r_n = ch_r_n = c_r_n = Chronus, Cronos?

Well spotted, Hatty.

I think I think the Megalithics are the Dwarves/Giants, Titans and Faeries. The association with the ancien régime is negative and is expressed in the folk tales of dancing miscreants and the full-blown mythologies of Uranus, Saturn and Zeus.
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DPCrisp


In: Bedfordshire
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Sabbath comes from shabat which is derived from the Hebrew word shev, meaning sit. I wonder if there's any connection with Shiva, the god of destruction and creation and preservation, who is usually associated with the Shiva linga, a phallic symbol, which reminds me of the standing stones (again). A bit far-fetched, admittedly - Shiva is also sometimes a flaming pillar and does a fair bit of dancing.

You're on to something again there, Hatty. Shivaree, shivoo/shiveau are boisterous gatherings, something like Saturnalia, perhaps. Dunno whether Shiva is especially associated with time, but as a "cyclical god", he clearly should be.

Phallic stones are widespread and petro-/patro- (as in Jupiter, amongst others) refers to stones and gods. There are suggestions that stone circles sometimes/often/usually include male and female forms... Then there are the dressed and undressed stones of the Trilithons...

Shev sitting/resting and sheva seven both fit the cut, the division between one cycle and the next... resting after working... sitting shivah for seven days at the end of someone's life...

Note that seven emphasises the discontinuity and endings of cycles, while nine represents the continuity, wholeness, completeness and beginnings of cycles. {Need to take a stab at the meaning of eight.}
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Or, to put it the other way about: the stones were associated with paganism and wrong-doing... and such pagan behaviour as dancing on the Lord's Day is a blasphemy fitting both the punishment and the configuration of the stones.

My idea is this. Christianity and Paganism (really the same thing -- one is just a puritanicalized, dogmatized and centralized version of the other) shared the same Sabbath day. That is why the Pagans were dancing -- to commemorate the Sabbath. But this was an old form of Sabbath commemoration and was forbidden.

The point is that the "9 Ladies" were not dancing on the Sabbath for the lark of it. They were dancing on the Sabbath to commemorate it.

(It seems there was a time when any kind of free expression and carnal desire or any kind was denounced as paganism whether consciously intended that way or not.

I suggest that their dancing was in fact a pre-Christian Pagan ritual commemoration of the Sabbath day -- the Christian/Pagan Sabbath day: Sunday.

When was the Pagan Sabbath?
Funnily enough, I thought about this the other day. I just read something about watches on ship when the sailors had no duties and could lounge around: Wednesday afternoon was one of them. Back in the days of early closing, the shops were shut in the afternoon, typically on Wednesdays. The traditional day for sports fixtures rather than lectures at British universities is/was Wednesday

It seems there is a tradition for the Day of Woden, the principal god, to be a day of rest. Sunday is very much the same idea.

VERY good information! Perhaps you are right. Perhaps then the dancers danced on Wednesday and the tradition survives only that they danced on a Sabbath -- without any notion of when that Sabbath was.
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Wireloop


In: Detroit
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http://www.inner.org/hebleter/zayin.jpg
http://www.decodeunicode.org/en/data/glyph/196x196/05D6.gif
http://association.tarotstudies.org/images/HebrewLettersA/zayin.gif

Of the above symbols, are there any that are not a fair representation of the number seven?

The ones that look a little skewed are in fact the Hebrew letter-symbol for the number 7, Zayin.

Zion (supposedly pronounced tsee-yown) most closely means something like 'barren', 'waterless' or even 'virgin'. Whilst Zayin (supposedly pronounced tsay-in) means 'seven'. This is interesting becasue Philo equates the number 'seven' with virginity whilst Paul calls Jerusalem (another name for Zion) 'barren'. Also considering that within the sexigesimal system the number 7 is 'unproductive', this begins to make a lot of sense especially since the Septuagint translated the word Zion with an 's' -- Sion.

Now what if the 'y' in both 'tsee-yown' and 'tsa-yin' was vocalized as a 'v'?
Then you would have 'tsee-vown' and 'tsa-vin'....SE-VEN.

Is there any justification for this?

Well, it seems that in 'Middle English' 7 was spelled 'seuen'.
As you know the 'u', 'v' were interchangable based upon placement. The word 'have' was spelled 'haue' whilst 'upon' was spelled 'vpon'. What this means to me is that since 'v' and 'u' looked so similar there would be some who would have a problem actually pronouncing the word correctly. Therefore words like 'seuen' may have actually, originally been pronounced as 'SEH-OWN'...TSI-OWN....SION. The pronounciation of SEVEN was a later, inevitable perversion.
Even in Greek the 'u' (pronounced oo) was written as a 'v' in Latin, but sounded as ooo.

In my eyes, though I would not state it absolutely, the context and etymology of Sion is cognate with Seven. Now, Sion I admit could mean 'divide' indirectly in the sense that Seven is cognate with the word Sever.
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David


In: Somerset
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Ishmael wrote:
By the way...the total number of "kits, cats, sacks, wives" is 2800. But of course, none of them are going to St. Ives.


Excuse me, Ishmael, but surely 7 to the 4th power is 2401 and not 2800. 7 wives x 7 sacks = 49 x 7 cats = 343 x 7 kittens = 2,401
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David


In: Somerset
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Ishmael, forget it; I forgot to add the components. You were right and I had too much gin on my cornflakes this morning! My apologies.
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