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Dark Age Obscured (History)
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aurelius



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Ishmael wrote:
N R Scott wrote:
I would guess that the wall was not built to keep the Mongols out, but built to keep the Chinese in.


Did you watch the video? I was astonished. It appears to be quite definitive on when it was built and the motivation.


Yes I watched the video.

The wall does sometimes appear on maps pre-1689 Peace Treaty:

http://www.mapsperhaps.com/products/newe-mape-tartary

Where it meets the sea it is known as Laolongtou, "Old Dragon's Head."
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Ishmael wrote:
What is curious is that the Tartar empire here makes yet another appearance on the world stage only to be yet again disappeared from history. What is going on? How could an entire empire be so effectively wiped from the history of every world civilization?


I have a theory for this - quite a big one. But it involves some conspiracy theorising so I don't think it'll get much traction here.

I think it was Hatty who mentioned on here the possible similarity between the names Tartar and Arctic. I think this is the key to figuring out what happened. Basically, I believe that the map makers were confused between east and north, and placed Tartar (the Arctic) to the east of Russia.

You'll notice that all Eskimos look East Asian, even as far as Greenland. This, along with what's now Mongolia, is the Eastern Horde.

Also Russia is a huge country, but very sparsely populated in the eastern half. Yet just below you have China, India, etc - the most populated part of the planet with 4 billion odd people. Doesn't this seem a little imbalanced? I know Russia is cold, but is it really that unattractive a place to live right across the miles and miles of open wilderness?

Anyhow, this is the crazy part. I would speculate that the east of Russia is either much smaller than we're told, or closer to the Arctic centre than we're told.

This is probably why the north east of Russia is still so restricted when it comes to travel.
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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If you don't like my theory though here's a similar one - this time from Korea. These Korean researchers are saying that on old maps many of the places in Asia today were located much further to the east or north. They even point out maps of North America that show place names such as china and corea.

They also postulate that the Bering Strait didn't exist when earlier maps were made, and that it's actually a man-made canal connecting the Pacific to a once separate northern sea.

Even with Google Translate it can be difficult to grasp exactly what they're trying to say though sadly.

http://m.blog.daum.net/kjm36000/349?categoryId=67



I think their general suggestion is that what is now Korea was once just a small part of a much larger empire that Koreans controlled, that has since been wiped from recorded history by land-grabbing westerners.

Personally I prefer my theory that just contracts the map, but then again I have the luxury of dismissing all satellite images of the region :)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Tartary = Territory
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Ishmael


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The word likely means literally, "zone of the Earth."

Nevertheless, there is reason to believe that someone, sometime, once divided the whole of the earth into such zones. My suspicion is that they were, in fact, the Tartars.

Does "Tartar" mean, literally, "one who zones the Earth?"
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N R Scott


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In the 16th century the French had a colony in what's now Brazil called France Antarctique. This would suggest that at one point South America, or at least part of it, was labelled the Antarctic. Again we have the confusion between a polar area and somewhere more temperate. Also, it was widely believed that South America was joined to the great landmass at this time, so it would make sense to call this region Ant-Arctic or An-Tartary.
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Ishmael


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Yes. And North America was once India, as I have shown.

What you have demonstrated is what I have formerly demonstrated: That cartographic devices tend to become more specific over time. If your observations are correct, it would indicate that the notion of the anti-arctic was previously less well-defined than it is today.

Neat how you borrowed the initial "T" of antarctic to further relate the word to Tartary. But that "t" is part of the prefix and is not part of the relevant word, "arctic."

Tartar is a word composed of a repetition of the two most fundamental sound forms in human language (as previously identified by me). A form I refer to as "Tzar," the closest English equivalent of which is "Zone," but is found in English in words as fundamental as "The," "This," "They," "That." However, its association with the zoning of land is further emphasized by its being the basis of the eminently English word, "Shire."

The point being that Tartar is crafted of "Tzar-tzar," with the T (or Z, or Ts, or St, or Sh) at the forefront being fundamental to the structure of the word. This structure is completely missing from the word "Arctic," the meaning and origin of which you cannot explain, unless you mean to make of it a bastardization of the word "Tartar?"

The word Tartary means literally "territory." Was the arctic such a territory? Indeed it might have been. But from where did that notion originate?

There are peoples in history who were called Tartars. There are peoples today who still have that name (though they may not be the same peoples). Those peoples appear to share at least some of the same territory.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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aurelius wrote:
The wall does sometimes appear on maps pre-1689 Peace Treaty:


If so, it is reason to suspect the authenticity of such maps.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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But that "t" is part of the prefix and is not part of the relevant word, "arctic."

It's always The Arctic. T has to precede Arctic, doesn't it?

The Antarctic is side-stepped with 'Antarctica' which sounds vague, but large.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Well if that satisfies you then, obviously, there is no further mystery for you to pursue. I would prefer to proceed then alone, without the nay-saying.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Keep going Ish.

wile wrote:
It was built by 19th century historians.


Did Marco Polo come across it? No

Did Ibn Battuta find it? No


wiki wrote:
Ibn Battuta also wrote he had heard of "the rampart of Yajuj and Majuj" that was "sixty days' travel" from the city of Zeitun (Quanzhou);[96] Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb notes that Ibn Battuta believed that the Great Wall of China was built by Dhul-Qarnayn to contain Gog and Magog as mentioned in the Quran.[96] However, Ibn Battuta, who asked about the wall in China, could find no one who had either seen it or knew of anyone who had seen it, suggesting that no significant structure of the wall constructed in the earlier periods remained at that period (the present structure was built later during the Ming dynasty).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Great_Wall_of_China#/media/File:Map_of_the_Great_Wall_of_China.jpg
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Ishmael


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It has been previously argued in this forum by others that the Apple of the Tree of Knowledge might have been an "Oak Apple."

aurelius wrote:
Tree of Life? 2, the Oak Oak trees are certainly embedded in the mythologies of various European peoples. Quercus robur, the species we are most familiar with in Britain, is very common throughout northwestern Europe, but absent from the Middle East. Nevertheless other species are found in that region, including in Israel and the extreme north of Iraq..


What are "Oak Apples?" According to Wikipedia...
Oak apple or oak gall is the common name for a large, round, vaguely apple-like gall commonly found on many species of oak. Oak apples range in size from 2 to 4 centimetres (1 to 2 in) in diameter and are caused by chemicals injected by the larva of certain kinds of gall wasp in the family Cynipidae.
Now it turns out that there is a direct relationship between Oak Apples and Knowledge:

In the medieval era, Oak apples were essential to the making of ink!
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aurelius



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Ishmael wrote:

Now it turns out that there is a direct relationship between Oak Apples and Knowledge:

In the medieval era, Oak apples were essential to the making of ink!


That makes for a juicy and piquant allegory, Ish!

Eve: Look at this Adam, this beautiful codex we were asked not to read.
Adam: I wouldn't if I were you, ignorance is bliss.
Eve: It's OK, a bloke with a shiny suit on said it was alright really, just a lot of black writing.
Adam: Is it a sort of encyclopedia?
Eve: Yes, it covers everything.
Adam: Hmmm...it looks quite interesting...OMG!
Eve: What?
Adam: We're starkers!
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Wile E. Coyote


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There is good and bad in wiki.

Take the following.........

Round-tower churches are a type of church found mainly in England, mostly in East Anglia; of about 185 surviving examples in the country, 124 are in Norfolk, 38 in Suffolk, six in Essex, three in Sussex and two each in Cambridgeshire and Berkshire. There is evidence of about 20 round-tower churches in Germany, of similar design and construction to those in East Anglia. Countries with at least one round-tower church include Andorra, the Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Poland and South Africa.

OK.....


The distinctive feature of these churches is their round towers.

Aha

The reason for their construction – mostly by the Anglo-Saxons – is a matter of dispute.

There is of course a big dispute over what constitute an Anglo Saxon church. Some folks in AE land have their doubts about whether any actually exist.

Suggested explanations include the following:

Round-tower churches are found in areas lacking normal building stone, and are therefore built of knapped flint. Corners are difficult to construct in flint, hence the thick, round walls of the towers.

There you go you got it

The churches are found in areas subject to raids from, for example, the Vikings, and were built as defensive structures, churches being added later. In fact, however, the towers are generally too short to have been of much use defensively, and the towers were often added to existing churches, having flat walls where they joined the main structure.

There you go you got it

In 937 King Athelstan (924–939), the first King of all England, decrees that a bell tower be built on the land of every thane; an existing trend of building bell towers on to existing churches was thus accelerated.

Hmmm...
.

Many other (less likely) explanations are offered in communities containing the churches, including appeals to ancient stone circles and the remains of wells.

.....Hmmmm

Round-tower churches should not be confused with similarly shaped structures such as the Irish round towers found in Ireland and Scotland, or with round churches, which have a circular plan and are often found in Denmark or Sweden.

OK now we are losing it.......

What wiki don't see is that folks were building round towers, in the Roman period, in areas where flint was in abundance.... and putting in quoins for corners, where local stone allowed. The Normans also used local stone to repair or renovate cruciform churches, or placed megalithic quoins to stabilize weight bearing corners, these stones were often taken from earlier Roman buildings or megalithic circles. So called Anglo-Saxon quoins are really just the inventive use of local stones often for smaller renovation work or patchwork repair.

This is why the academics are bamboozled........we arrive in the 11th century, with a mysterious Anglo Saxon/Norman period in which nobody has a clue what is AS/Norman.... normally cheaper repairs/smaller renovations using local stone or stone reused from Roman sites gets labelled AS... This enables your Anglo Saxon fanatics to push back in time these repairs/renovations further and further back into the Dark Ages. There is a quest to become the first Anglo Saxon church.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Just came across a town called Orbetello in the Maremma region of Italy. It's in the middle of a lagoon, on a sandy tombolo connecting it to the mainland

The lagoon which surrounds Orbetello is part of a protected nature reserve and is one of the most uncontaminated areas of natural beauty in Tuscany. This coastal lagoon is an inland sea consisting of 1500 hectares of reclaimed marshland. The large stretch of water is divided into two lagoons, the Laguna di Ponente which stretches to the west of Orbetello and the Laguna di Levante which stretches to the east.




The site says Orbetello was an Etruscan town before the Romans took over and it became an important trade centre due to its safe harbours. Later mining of pyrite or fool's gold and fish processing were the main industries.

No-one seems to consider the inland sea-and-tombolos layout is manmade even though it doesn't look at all natural. Anyway tellus in Latin means land or earth. It seems to be the same word as teilo, to spread dung/manure in Welsh, which came up in connection with llans and St Teilo.
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