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The Serpent's Tale (History)
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Mick Harper
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Don't see the French Connection. (Do you see what I did there?)
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aurelius



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There is a part-rebuttal e-letter attached to the main RS essay from a Norwegian. This is part of it:

The implication that modern red deer in the Outer Hebrides descend unmixed from the ancient population studied in this paper is, however, not valid. The historical record is clear that modern populations are to a significant extent, or possibly wholly, descended from red deer introduced in the 19th and 20th centuries when many areas of these islands were converted from subsistence agriculture and pastoralism, or from the later 18th century sheep ranching, to recreational hunting estates.

Outer Hebrides samples for this paper were taken from locations in South Harris, North Uist, and South Uist. Whitehead (1964) records that "There are no red deer on South Uist today". On North Uist, "Between 1885 and 1900 Sir John Campbell Orde introduced at least one English park stag besides calves from some of the mainland forests" (themselves often descendants of English park deer, op.cit. and see Hmwe et al. 2006). His successor "purchased an Irish stag and several hinds" with the intention of stocking N. Uist with their progeny. "In 1936 two stags and three hinds were introduced on to the island from Warnham Court" (a park herd in England). Deer were also recorded as swimming to N. Uist from Pabbay, a smaller island nearby, where the red deer are "not ...of indigenous stock but are descended from deer introduced to the island about 1880". On South Harris, "some English park deer as well as some beasts from the Scottish mainland were introduced to South Harris". Some of these "came from Warnham Court in 1898".

The introductions listed above are clearly not likely to have been the only such events...
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
Yew=Jew=Druid

Yew.....Ju...niper

Presumably they the trees predate churches, just like the old testament predates the new.

Looked at this in mining in ancient britain.

The old mine workings became associated with the Jews. Same thing. Obvious. (apologies Trump posting) Time constraint.
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Wile E. Coyote


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aurelius wrote:
There is a part-rebuttal e-letter attached to the main RS essay from a Norwegian. This is part of it:


It looks a tad more than a part rebuttal.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Mick Harper wrote:
This article is clearly a smoking gun. I'll comment on the abstract, rhe rest of you idle curs can read the nitty-gritty.


Wiley has recently been re reading the whole neolithic/domestication thing.

According to ortho the neo is associated with outsiders, sitting on your backside, pottery, megaliths, and of course domestication of cereal and animals.

There is not a lot of evidence for this in Britain. Still it's scientific and focuses on the proportions of stable isotopes, within bones, in ancient human and animals resulting from differing diets.

Mesolithic=Fish diets, most of the sites are coastal and temporary.

Neolithic =Meat diets, most of the sites are permanent and more inland.

Was change rapid or slow...

If the mesolithic was the neolithic you would put this down to location..........
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Mick Harper wrote:
Don't see the French Connection.

French for yew is if
French for Jew is juif.
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Mick Harper
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So the English chose to use a Yew sound for their Israeilites and the French chose a Yew sound for their Israelites yet there seems no obvious concord(e) between the two sounds. That is mildly astonishing. Theories anyone?
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Hatty
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Juif may be a transliteration of English Jew(ish) even though our language borrowings are usually assumed to be from French to English.

The French ebreu (= Hebrew) is similar enough to ebro/eburo to imply a yew - Jew - Hebrew link.
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aurelius



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Interesting discussion. Here are the earliest recorded mentions of the tree in the OED:


c725 Corpus Gloss. (Hessels) T 15 Taxus, iuu.

985 Charter of Æðelred in Kemble Cod. Dipl. III. 218 Of wænhyrste on ðone eald iw; ðonone of ðon iwe to Lullan setle.

OE Riddle 55 9 Þær wæs hlin ond acc ond se hearda iwond se fealwa holen.

c1000 in T. Wright & R. P. Wülcker Anglo-Saxon & Old Eng. Vocab. (1884) I. 139/14 Ornus, eow.

Next sheepish refs from the C14th and C15th as 'ew/ewe'.

Becomes 'eugh' based second half of the C16th.
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Mick Harper
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Yes, if Jew can be transmogrified into ewe/sheep (never mind yew) this will be slightly breakthroughish. The Israelites were originally sheepherders but I don't think they still were by the time they had become Jews (or whatever the term is).
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Hatty
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An interesting snippet came up with regard to Tidenham Manor, an estate in Gloucestershire bordering the Beachley-Aust ferry across the Severn

In 956 the bounds of Tidenham manor followed the Severn on the east and the Wye on the west while the northern and north-eastern boundary between the two rivers followed a series of landmarks some of which can be identified. The boundary began at Yewtree Headland, the neck of land on the Wye opposite Tintern where the woods still contained many yews in 1969, ran on to the Stone Row, and then to White Hollow (Hwitan Heal), a name which survives in Whitewalls, a house east of Oakhill Wood; it then passed through Yew Valley, Broad Moor, and Twyford, where the Piccadilly and Black brooks join at the main Gloucester-Chepstow road, and came to a pill on the Severn later called Horse Pill.


The spelling is quite similar to Auro's entries

The promontory on which Ferry Farm stands was called Yewtree Headland (Iwes Heafdan) in 956, ...

Is it significant there is no 'tree' in the earlier name? I wonder if the headland was named for ewes but written as yew headland perhaps due to a misunderstanding.
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aurelius



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Is it significant there is no 'tree' in the earlier name?


The earlier name being....Lancaut? Or what?

Opposite Chepstow, and within the lower part of the wedge of Tidenham Manor land is Tutshill.

Watkins noted that hill tops with the element 'tot' or 'toot', sometimes changed to 'dod', occurred uncommonly frequently along his leys...in recent years the place-name elements 'toot' and 'tut' have been looked at by a number of investigators. The general consensus is that it denotes a 'a hill of observation', a look-out place. The word derives from the Old English totian, 'to peep, look out, spy', or Middle English toten, 'to project, stick out'. But 'to tote' in Middle English is 'to watch, to look out'...links to a whole group of Germanic words which can be traced back to the Old High German word tutta or tuta, meaning 'nipple'. In Old Norse tuta extends its meaning to 'a teat-like prominence'.

http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/Toothill.htm

Then again there could be a pagan religious connection:

the Toot Hills, formerly consecrated to the worship of the Celtic deity ‘ Teutates,’ many of which still remain with scarcely any alteration of their designated names. . . A stone was the first rude representation of Tuisto, or Teut, and these dedicated stones were placed on eminences, natural or artificial, most commonly by road sides, and hence called Tot-hills or Teut-hills, and in various parts of the kingdom

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/tts/tts1906/summer/hemlockstone.htm
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Hatty
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aurelius wrote:
The earlier name being....Lancaut? Or what?

The version in Olde English is given as
Yewtree Headland (Iwes Heafdan)


Tutshill.

The general consensus is that it denotes a 'a hill of observation', a look-out place. The word derives from the Old English totian, 'to peep, look out, spy', or Middle English toten, 'to project, stick out'. But 'to tote' in Middle English is 'to watch, to look out'...links to a whole group of Germanic words which can be traced back to the Old High German word tutta or tuta, meaning 'nipple'. In Old Norse tuta extends its meaning to 'a teat-like prominence'.

I can think of lots of tots and toot(ing)s, some of which are hillyish, but there's no obvious reason to trace English place names back to words from Old High German or Old Norse or whatever. When you find online etymology saying "Toot: possibly an independent imitative formation" it is clear they mean 'unknown'.

Then again there could be a pagan religious connection:

Mmm.. it sounds like linguists' equivalent of 'ritual' in archaeology.

the Toot Hills, formerly consecrated to the worship of the Celtic deity ‘ Teutates,’ many of which still remain with scarcely any alteration of their designated names. . . A stone was the first rude representation of Tuisto, or Teut, and these dedicated stones were placed on eminences, natural or artificial, most commonly by road sides, and hence called Tot-hills or Teut-hills, and in various parts of the kingdom

Why is Teutates or Tuisto or Teut dotted around but no-one else? Could it be that 'imitative formation' thing the etymologists are so fond of?
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aurelius



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Hatty what I am not understanding from you is:


The promontory on which Ferry Farm stands was called Yewtree Headland (Iwes Heafdan) in 956, ...

Is it significant there is no 'tree' in the earlier name?


If the earlier name is Iwes Heafdan, then there is a tree in it, - yew. Or do you know of an even earlier name?
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Hatty
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The current name -- Yewtree Headland -- is unambiguous but 'Iwes' seems open to interpretation.

For instance, is it referring to 'ewes' or even Ives, as in St Ives also with a tidal island/headland and an important crossing point albeit overland (St Ives Head is due north of St Michael's Mount).
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