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Dark Age Obscured (History)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Hmm... Which accords well with my allegation of years past that Norman = Roman.

R and N are constantly and consistently confused.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Ishmael wrote:
Hmm... Which accords well with my alegation of years past that Norman = Roman.

R and N are constantly and consistently confused.


My suspicion is that there is very little difference (structurally) between a villa rustica and a monastery.
Ok, you won't get the mosaics.......

In fact for those that start (as opposed to Wiley finish with a evidence-based approach)........
http://www.cotswoldarchaeology.co.uk/content/uploads/2011/07/llandough-pdf.pdf

Which finds a possible (although unproven) continuity based on the finding of a Roman Villa (Romano British like A/S is a handy label)

When Mick was looking at Llandaff, I noted that according to Wiki Llandaff Cathedral page.

Llandaff Cathedral (Welsh: Eglwys Gadeiriol Llandaf) is an Anglican cathedral in Llandaff, Cardiff, Wales. It is the seat of the Bishop of Llandaff, head of the Church in Wales Diocese of Llandaff. It is dedicated to Saint Peter and Saint Paul, and three Welsh saints: Dubricius (Welsh: Dyfrig), Teilo and Oudoceus (Welsh: Euddogwy). It is one of two cathedrals in Cardiff, the other being the Roman Catholic Cardiff Cathedral in the city centre.

The current building was constructed in the 12th century over the site of an earlier church.


So far so normal......

Yet on the Llandaff page
Most of the history of Llandaff centres on its role as a religious site. Before the creation of Llandaff Cathedral it became established as a Christian place of worship in the 6th century AD, probably because of its location as the first firm ground north of the point where the river Taff met the Bristol Channel, and because of its pre-Christian location as a river crossing on a north-south trade route. Evidence of Romano-British ritual burials have been found under the present cathedral.


Romano-British eh.......

Maybe a false trail....Still I might open a new trench or two.
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Boreades


In: finity and beyond
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Wile E. Coyote wrote:
My suspicion is that there is very little difference (structurally) between a villa rustica and a monastery.
Ok, you won't get the mosaics.......


Your suspicion is well-founded.

As a great many pensioned Roman Legion veterans (in their many thousands) never left Britain, but stayed and settled down. With large areas of land under their control.

Their Mithraic temples quietly became the very earliest British churches. Most of the ones that have been found are also in the same areas as the great monastery estates.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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And on the same parallel as Londinium.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him (Revelation 12: 7-9).



Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time (Revelation 12:12).


The Revelation view on Dragons is that St Michael fights and drives the dragon (and the fallen angels) out of heaven, but this cleansing of heavon only leads to the arrival of the dragon (and angels) on earth.

It appears that both the dragon and angels need wings for the same reason.

With the battle for heaven over, the campaign against the dragon now switches to earth and is carried on by different saints. Saint Patrick drives the snakes out of Ireland. etc.

So we create a cleansed linear time/space in the afterlife, but suffer as a consequence interrupted (by battle) cyclical time/space now.

St Micheal really was pants.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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St Michael may have been requisitioned quite belatedly. The angel-messenger of choice has always been the Archangel Gabriel who is celebrated in Christianity for the Annunciation and in Islam, as Jibreel, for revealing the Quran.

Many St Michael churches include 'and all Angels' in their dedication. His feast day is 29th September, traditionally the feast day of Gabriel, which seems a pretty straightforward take-over.
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Wile E. Coyote


In: Arizona
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Peterborough cathedral is interesting.
wiki wrote:


The original church, known as "Medeshamstede", was founded in the reign of the Anglo-Saxon King Peada of the Middle Angles in about 655 AD, as one of the first centres of Christianity in central England.[2] The monastic settlement with which the church was associated lasted at least until 870, when it was supposedly destroyed by Vikings. In an alcove of the Lady Chapel, lies an ancient stone carving: the Hedda Stone. This medieval carving of 12 monks, six on each side, commemorates the destruction of the Monastery and the death of the Abbot and Monks when the area was sacked by the Vikings in 864. The Hedda Stone was likely carved sometime after the raid, when the monastery slipped into decline.[3]

In the mid 10th century monastic revival (in which churches at Ely and Ramsey were also refounded) a Benedictine Abbey was created and endowed in 966, principally by Athelwold, Bishop of Winchester, from what remained of the earlier church, with "a basilica [church] there furbished with suitable structures of halls, and enriched with surrounding lands" and more extensive buildings which saw the aisle built out to the west with a second tower added. The original central tower was, however, retained.[4] It was dedicated to St Peter, and came to be called a burgh, hence the town surrounding the abbey was eventually named Peter-burgh.


It all follows like links in a chain. The you realise that Peada was Peter and the chronology/history is all wrong.

In fact Peada=Peter (the rock)=Petroc=Patrick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peada_of_Mercia#/media/File:Peada_at_Lichfield.jpg
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Wile E. Coyote


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Hang on B=P D=T

Bede = Peada = Peter

We know Peada through Bede.

wiki wrote:
In about the year 653 Peada was made king of the Middle Angles by his father. Bede, describing Peada as "an excellent youth, and most worthy of the title and person of a king"
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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There was no church/monastery/cathedral at Peterborough before Norman times. This is all you need to know.

The quantity of finds exceeded expectations and came from Roman times right through to the 20th century. The 10th century burgh wall remains somewhat elusive but there are clues as to where it may have been. One of the highlights was the discovery of a civil war campsite where bottles, pipes, musket balls and broken glass appear to have been left by Cromwellian soldiers.

But obviously if anyone can find anything I will eat my dinner.
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Wile E. Coyote


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I actually disagree the Peada/Peter stuff is interesting. (well to me only)

Still also interesting is that it was ransacked after the Normans. as well as by the vikings (supposedly).
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Hatty
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as well as by the vikings (supposedly).

Do you have the primary source for the attacks (supposedly), Wile? This is not always straightforward. Historians are often quite chary about revealing it/them, preferring to quote some other historian/s including page number, date of publication and so on.
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Mick Harper
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I actually disagree the Peada/Peter stuff is interesting. (well to me only)

Of course it's interesting, Wiley. That's the whole point. When the Peterborough cathedral pilgrimage promoters were putting their legends together, they are hardly going to make it uninteresting, are they? Who would come? Do you think it a coincidence that the last version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles was composed in Peterborough in the 1130's? I haven't examined their version overmuch myself but you may be sure it will contain lots about Penda.

Still also interesting is that it was ransacked after the Normans. as well as by the vikings (supposedly).

You have to differentiate between ransacking and obliteration. The 'Vikings' are used to account for the mysterious lack of any pre-Norman building. Later miscreants need only have made off with the documents and other impedimenta that ... wait for it ... therefore had to be 'replaced' by the pilgrimage promoters. And of course believed as gospel by modern historians. But that was the easy bit.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Peada/Peter is proving fascinating as I suspected.

wiki wrote:
In 653, Cedd was sent by Oswiu of Northumberland with three other priests, to evangelise the Middle Angles,[2] who were one of the core ethnic groups of Mercia, based on the mid-Trent Valley. Peada of Mercia, son of Penda, was sub-king of the Middle Angles. Peada had agreed to become a Christian in return for the hand of Oswiu's daughter, Alchflaed (c.635-c.714), in marriage. This was a time of growing Northumbrian power, as Oswiu reunited and consolidated the Northumbrian kingdom after its earlier (641/2) defeat by Penda. Peada travelled to Northumbria to negotiate his marriage and baptism.

Cedd, together with the priests, Adda, Betti and Diuma, accompanied Peada back to Middle Anglia, where they won numerous converts of all classes. Bede relates that the pagan Penda did not obstruct preaching even among his subjects in Mercia proper, and portrays him as generally sympathetic to Christianity at this point - a very different view from the general estimate of Penda as a devoted pagan. But, the mission apparently made little headway in the wider Mercian polity. Bede credits Cedd's brother Chad with the effective evangelization of Mercia more than a decade later. To make progress among the general population, Christianity appeared to need positive royal backing, including grants of land for monasteries, rather than a benign attitude from leaders.


So according to Bede

Cedd, together with the priests, Adda, Betti and Diuma, accompanied Peada back to Middle Anglia,

P accompanies back (A,B,C,D)

Its a mnemonic? .
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Mick Harper
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Most ingenious. Push on! Of course you probably twigged that 'Middle Anglia' is the soke of Peterborough and environs. What a stroke of luck that popped into existence.
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Wile E. Coyote


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Bede credits Cedd's brother Chad with the effective evangelization of Mercia more than a decade later.


That's because Cedd=Chad=Chard= Chart=Carta= Charles =Charlemagne=Magna Carta

wiki wrote:

Chard's name was Cerden in 1065 and Cerdre in the Domesday Book of 1086 and it means "house on the chart or rough ground" (Old English: ćeart + renn).[4] Before the Norman Conquest Chard was held by the Bishop of Wells.[5] The town's first charter was from King John and another from the bishop in 1234, which delimited the town and laid out burgage holdings in 1-acre (4,000 m2) lots at a rent of twelve pence per year.[6] The parish of Chard was part of the Kingsbury Hundred,[7


Cedd, together with the priests, Adda, Betti and Diuma, accompanied Peada back to Middle Anglia, where they won numerous converts of all classes. Bede relates that the pagan Penda did not obstruct preaching even among his subjects in Mercia proper, and portrays him as generally sympathetic to Christianity at this point - a very different view from the general estimate of Penda as a devoted pagan. But, the mission apparently made little headway in the wider Mercian polity. Bede credits Cedd's brother Chad with the effective evangelization of Mercia more than a decade later. To make progress among the general population, Christianity appeared to need positive royal backing, including grants of land for monasteries, rather than a benign attitude from leaders.


The ABCD monks are place naming/land dividing devices.

As part of the coversion process the Monks (charter producers) were dividing up the land.

Diuma= Don Ton etc.
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