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Who birthed the Renaissance? (NEW CONCEPTS)
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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N R Scott wrote:
I've just finished reading two plays about about Henry VIII. Shakespeare's Henry VIII (1613) and a play called When You See Me You Know Me by Samuel Rowley (1605).


Shakespeare's play has already come in for some discussion here -- its title change was also much noted for potential significance. Rowley's play was only a recent discovery for me.

One thing I noticed was the similarity between the name Rowley, the Tudor Play-write, and "Rowlandas Lockey", the alleged nom de plum of Holbein, the Tudor painter.

Chart:
Rowley = Rowlandas Lockey - Andas Lock

Does it mean anything?

Damned if I know!
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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The Shakespeare play told the story as we know it today - although it only dealt with the marriage to Anne Boleyn and the birth of Elizabeth (none of the subsequent marriages were mentioned).


Note that this is the portion of Henry's life favorite to every dramatist, writer and "historian."

However, the second play was kinda crazy. That play dealt with the birth of Edward and Henry's life onwards.


In light of my comment above, it is odd that such a play as this even exists. To write about Henry and to leave out the best part is itself a very strange choice for a dramatist.

Was Rowley's play written as a sequel? A Part II to an unknown Part I?

We might take When You See Me... for the sequel to All is True, but for Shakespeare's play having not yet been written (so we are told) and its differing in major details (the death of Wolsey, for example).

Was there another play written by Rowland dealing with Boleyn that has been lost?

Or is it possible that Rowland never knew about Boleyn??
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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If I may summarize your report of Rowley's history, we have...
  1. Cardinal Wolsey does not die.
  2. Thomas Cromwell never lives.
  3. Catherine Howard does not exist.
  4. Anne of Cleves may not exist.*
  5. Anne Bowleyn may not exist.**
*If the single line reference to Anne of Cleves is removed, does the play move forward without disturbance? What about the very paragraph in which she is mentioned?

**Does Wolsey's confession of blame in Bowleyn's death belong in the play thematically? What has it to do with the story? Is this the only reference to Bowleyn in the entire play?

My suggestion here is that both of these portions of the play may be interpolations intended to square the text with "history" as it was taking shape at the time the interpolations were made.

Some questions...
  • If the Cleves and Bowlyn references in question are removed, do both Cleves and Bowleyn disappear from Rowland's history?
  • In Rowland's history, who is the mother of Edward VI? Is the mother named? How often?
  • How prominent is Edward VI in the play?
  • Is there any mention of Catherine of Aragon?
  • What of the great divorce between England and Catholicism? Is it mentioned?
Is it possible that Rowland's original play was not a sequel to events left unmentioned but, in Rowland's mind, covered all of the events of consequence in the life of Henry VIII?
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Tilo Rebar


In: Sussex
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Hatty wrote:
The clock looks too advanced for its time... depends of course when this portrait is said to have been painted...

Good point Hatty, the clock does look ahead of its time. I think this one looks a bit like it...



It is a very early Lantern Clock, alleged to have been made in the 1580 by Robert Harvey, some 50 years prior to the formation of the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers in 1631.

As Thomas Moore is alleged to have died in 1532, there is an obvious discrepancy.

The Hans Holbein sketch of the Moore family was alleged to have been made in 1527.
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Tilo Rebar wrote:
It is a very early Lantern Clock, alleged to have been made in the 1580 by Robert Harvey, some 50 years prior to the formation of the Worshipful Company of Clockmakers in 1631.


I love this stuff!

Can we develop this argument?
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N R Scott


In: Middlesbrough
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Ishmael wrote:
If the single line reference to Anne of Cleves is removed, does the play move forward without disturbance? What about the very paragraph in which she is mentioned?


Yeh, the line feels like it's been tacked on. This was the paragraph.

King. Commend me to the Ladie Catherine Parry,
Give her this Ring, tell her on sunday next
She shall be Queene, and crownde at Westminster;
And Anne of Clease shall be sent home againe


Does Wolsey's confession of blame in Bowleyn's death belong in the play thematically? What has it to do with the story? Is this the only reference to Bowleyn in the entire play?


This bit was more involved.

Gardner. I feare false Luthers doctrins spread so farre,
Least that his highnesse now unmarried,
Should match amongst that sect of Lutherans,
You saw how soone his majestie was wonne,
To scorne the Pope, and Romes religion,
When Queen Anne Bullen wore the diadem.

Woolsie. Gardner tis true, so was the rumor spread:
But Woolsie wrought such meanes she lost her head,
Tush feare not thou whilst Haries life doth stand,
He shall be king, but we will rule the land


The line saying so was the rumor spread is probably quite telling. I think it was the only reference to Boleyn, but Elizabeth is mentioned in the play. In fact, both Mary and Elizabeth write letters to Edward at various points.

In Rowland's history, who is the mother of Edward VI? Is the mother named? How often?

Jane Seymour. She appears in the play often and dies after childbirth like in the conventional account.

How prominent is Edward VI in the play?

Very prominent. He's completely lionised as a Protestant hero.

Is there any mention of Catherine of Aragon?

Nor, I'm pretty sure she's completely absent, although her daughter Mary is around.

What of the great divorce between England and Catholicism? Is it mentioned?

Only in that above passage about Boleyn getting beheaded. The threat of Lutherism is mentioned frequently, but Henry is always impartial. Wolsey still has ambitions of being Pope towards the end of the play and oddly Henry receives his title of Defender of the Faith from the Pope during the reign of Catherine Parr.

Also Mary Tudor, Henry's sister, gets married to the French king much later than she does in the traditional account.
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Mick Harper
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In: London
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I suppose we had better mark the four-hundred-year anniversary of Shakespeare (sic) by parading his Megalithic connections. In the first place both of his professions -- the wool trade and the theatre -- are prime Megalithic pursuits (see TME for details). Indeed it is generally supposed that the one paid for the other though the origin of the Shakespeare family money is highly mysterious and possibly illicit. His family is highly Megalithic

Thorkell of Arden, a descendant of the ruling family of Mercia, was one of the few major English landowners who retained extensive properties after the Norman conquest, and his progeny, the Arden family, remained prominent in the area for centuries. Mary Arden, mother of William Shakespeare, was a member

Thorkell (this one?) pops up in the Hereford Gospel which will be featuring in The Second Dark Age shortly. The Forest of Arden is one of the great Shakespearean mysteries since As You Like It is set in the Forest of Arden and yet the original source, Thomas Lodge's prose romance Rosalynde, was set in the Ardennes in Belgium. Very odd.

From around 1162, until the suppression of the order in 1312, the Knights Templar owned a preceptory at Temple Balsall in the middle of the Forest of Arden.

We have often speculated about the relationship between the old Megalithic families and the Catholic recusants. Sure enough

It is believed that many local families had resisted the Reformation and retained Catholic sympathies, possibly including the family of Shakespeare, whose paternal ancestors were from Temple Balsall.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Mick Harper wrote:
Thorkell of Arden, a descendant of the ruling family of Mercia, was one of the few major English landowners who retained extensive properties after the Norman conquest, and his progeny, the Arden family, remained prominent in the area for centuries. Mary Arden, mother of William Shakespeare, was a member

Thorkell (this one?) pops up in the Hereford Gospel which will be featuring in The Second Dark Age shortly.


The Ardens were dispossessed of their estate but leased lands back from the earls of Warwick so Thorkell of Arden and Thorkell of Warwick are one and the same.

The manor of Coughton is recorded in the Domesday Book when it was one of 70 manors in Warwickshire held by Thorkell, or Turchill, of Warwick later surnamed Arden. Thorkell was an Anglo-Saxon, his father, a descendant of Vikings, was Sheriff of Warwick under King Edward the Confessor. Thorkell refused to support King Harold, his relatives the earls of Mercia, Leofric and his successors Ælfgar and Morkere, had constantly been at arms against Harold[6] whom Mercia had never really recognised as King of England and he therefore received the gratitude of William the Conqueror, allowing him to retain his lordship and many landholdings in Warwickshire.


According to Wiki, the Arden family is one of only three which can trace their lineage through the male line back to Anglo-Saxon times.

[No wonder 'our' Thorkill galloped off to Hereford to get his land charters 'authenticated'.]
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Ishmael


In: Toronto
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Chart:
Rowley = Rowlandas Lockey - Andas Lock

Does it mean anything?


Andas is Swedish for "Breathe."

It's apparently Spanish for "Stretcher"

In Latin it has something to do with walking.
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Hatty
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In: Berkshire
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Mick Harper wrote:
The Forest of Arden is one of the great Shakespearean mysteries since As You Like It is set in the Forest of Arden and yet the original source, Thomas Lodge's prose romance Rosalynde, was set in the Ardennes in Belgium. Very odd.

Arden Great Moor is an upland plateau, part of the Mowbray landholdings in the sheep rearing North York Moors.

The Mowbrays were one of the great Anglo-Norman families and the Vale of Mowbray (sometimes mistakenly called the Vale of York) was named for Roger de Mowbray, crusader and founder of Byland Abbey, a 'shining light of the north'. He is the same chap who gave the Templars their land in the Forest of Arden.
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