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DPCrisp
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In: Bedfordshire
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The Plough
In a passage from The Odyssey quoted in Wilkens, Ursa Major is also called the Wain.
"That's interesting," I said to myself, "since I reckon that wain, wagon, way, wake... are all the same word and Viking = waking. Now, cutting a wake is exactly what a plough does, so the constellation has been known as The Plough at least since Homer's time.
"Alternatively," I whispered to myself, so I might not hear, "it really was seen as a wagon or cart and the Plough, dating from who-knows-when, is a staggeringly coincidental appellation."
Etymonline: Big Dipper: Amer.Eng. name for the seven-star asterism (known in England as Charles' Wain) in the constellation Ursa Major... In Anglo-Saxon times, it was O.E. w�nes �isl "pole of the wain."
The pole, whether of cart or plough, highlights its role as time-keeper or pointer.
Charles's Wain: O.E. Carles w�gn, associated with Charlemagne, originally with the nearby bright star Arcturus, which is linked by folk etymology to L. Arturus "Arthur." The crux of this is the legendary association of Arthur and Charlemagne.
{This is a new one on me.} Others say it's "churl's wain" {same thing, really}. What does Charlemagne have to do with
a) Arthur
b) a wagon or cart
c) a plough?
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Ishmael
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In: Toronto
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DPCrisp wrote: {This is a new one on me.} Others say it's "churl's wain" {same thing, really}. What does Charlemagne have to do with a) Arthur |
I have read elsewhere that some scholars believe Arthur to be a mythologized Charlemagne. Now, if you suspect (as I do) that Charlemagne is himself a myth (having lived during a period of history that did not really happen), then they might well be one and the same thing. Arthur is Charlemagne.
Why would he have two names?
Remember Mick talking about mythical people with two names? Does that mean anything?
Arthur is also known as "The Fisher King." Does that relate somehow?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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Others say it's "churl's wain" {same thing, really}. |
Surely not. Churl means peasant, hardly the same as Charlemagne. But the idea of Charlemagne (or King Arthur) being associated with a cart is pretty laughable anyway. What next? Suleiman's Needle-and-Thread? Pope Gregory's toilet-pan? King Charles' spaniel?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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Here's a quick contribution to Ishmael's Invented History theory.
First History Forger: We need a really BIG historical figure to build the whole period around.
Second History Forger: Let's name him after a heavenly body.
FHF: I like it...but not the sun or the moon...too obvious...what about a star.
SHF: Better still, a constellation.
FHF: What's the biggest one we've got?
SHF: The Churl's Wain.
FHF: That's it, Charlemagne!
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DPCrisp
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In: Bedfordshire
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Ish wrote: Remember Mick talking about mythical people with two names? Does that mean anything? |
Lots of people have two names...
Arthur is also known as "The Fisher King." Does that relate somehow? |
One of the key things about the Plough (the Septentriones, the Imperishable Ones) is that it "alone has no part in the baths of the Ocean". [Odyssey] I suppose the Fisher King, who plucks the reborn from beneath the waves, doesn't (in this context) undergo death himself. Firmly in Mysteries territory here.
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DPCrisp
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In: Bedfordshire
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Churl means peasant, hardly the same as Charlemagne. |
Churl, Charlemagne Charles, Karl, Karol, Carlos... (and a host of feminine equivalents) mean man.
But the idea of Charlemagne (or King Arthur) being associated with a cart is pretty laughable anyway. |
I dunno the stories. There's Alfred and his cakes... various kings and their trees... Bruce and his spider... why not Charlemagne and a plough or cart?
FHF: What's the biggest one we've got?
SHF: The Churl's Wain.
FHF: That's it, Charlemagne! |
Whether the inspiration for Charlemagne or not, I suppose the Churl's Wain = the Wain of Man. Whether as a cart or a plough, the Wain has to do travel, which can allude to the passage of time. It was used to tell the time... it remains in view... it points to the Pole Star... I think it would be fair to characterise it as "the wain provided for man's use".
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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One of the key things about the Plough (the Septentriones, the Imperishable Ones) is that it "alone has no part in the baths of the Ocean". [Odyssey] I suppose the Fisher King, who plucks the reborn from beneath the waves, doesn't (in this context) undergo death himself. Firmly in Mysteries territory here. |
Can't tell if it's what you are referring to but the Plough is one of the few constellations that never falls below the horizon i.e. into the baths of the ocean. However, "few" is not "alone" so it might be worth finding out whereabouts on the earth's surface the Plough is rather singular in this respect. If it's a long way north, this might assist in Wilkenising the Odyssey.
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DPCrisp
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In: Bedfordshire
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If it's a long way north, this might assist in Wilkenising the Odyssey. |
The further north you go, the more constellations keep their feet dry. At the Equator, the Pole Star lies on the horizon and every other star takes a plunge every night. (That wasn't true when the Celestial Pole didn't coincide with a star, of course.)
The tip of the Plough is Alkaid, at 49° declination, so at 41° N, it just dips in the water. Everywhere further north than that, the whole of the Plough is visible all night. That is, just about everywhere north of the Bosporus.
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DPCrisp
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In: Bedfordshire
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Re: The Plough
pluvial: of or pertaining to rain, from Fr. pluvial, from L. pluvialis "pertaining to rain," from (aqua) pluvia "rain (water)," from fem. of pluvius "rainy," from plovere "to rain," from PIE base *pleu- "to flow, to swim" (cf. Skt. plavate "navigates, swims;" Gk. plynein "to wash," plein "to navigate;" O.E. flowan "to flow").
flow: O.E. flowan (past tense fleow, pp. flowen), from P.Gmc. *flo- (cf. Du. vloeien "to flow," O.N. floa "to deluge," O.H.G. flouwen "to rinse, wash"), probably from PIE *pleu- "flow, float" (cf. Skt. plavate "navigates, swims," plavayati "overflows;" Armenian helum"I pour;" Gk. plyno "I wash," pleo "swim, go by sea;" L. pluere "to rain;" O.C.S. plovo "to flow, navigate;" Lith. pilu "to pour out," plauti "rinse").
Compare
Plough/plow, for which Etymonline doesn't actually offer any meaning: O.E. plog, ploh "plow, plowland (a measure of land)," possibly from Scand. (cf. O.N. plogr "plow"), from P.Gmc. *plogo- (cf. O.Fris. ploch, M.L.G. ploch, M.Du. ploech, O.H.G. pfluog). O.C.S. plugu, Lith. plugas "plow" are Germanic loan-words, as is probably L. plovus, plovum "plow," a word said by Pliny to be of Rhaetian origin.
(Another V to be taken as U.) So now we can see what plough means. And it's still the same as wain.
Ploughs and flowing water... I wonder whether the plough was first used for irrigation.
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DPCrisp
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In: Bedfordshire
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Wiki today:
Plate 9 from A familiar treatise on astronomy (1825) depicting Ursa Major, a constellation visible throughout the year in most of the northern hemisphere. In European star charts, the constellation was visualized with the 'square' of the Big Dipper forming the bear's body and the chain of stars as a long tail, even though bears do not have long tails.
Something dead fishy going on here.
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Hatty
Site Admin
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In: Berkshire
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In European star charts, the constellation was visualized with the 'square' of the Big Dipper forming the bear's body and the chain of stars as a long tail, even though bears do not have long tails. |
It's reminiscent of a 'bear spirit' rather than a bear as such. Seems alien to us because shamanistic lore has always been kept firmly on the fringes unlike creatures like winged horses and flying reindeer that are accepted without blinking as part of Classical or Western mythology.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
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In: London
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Right, so spirit animals have completely made-up features? "OK, guys, we've got yer basic bear, now less give 'im some.... antlers."
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Hatty
Site Admin
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In: Berkshire
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Spirit animals are stylised, an amalgam of recognisable and allegorical features. Bit like in heraldry. A shaman will don feathers, antlers, tails and so on depending on which animal he or she identifies with...a flying bear if the shaman's animal spirit is a bear, one of the most popular. (The bear's tail looks like it's serving as a rudder to improve balance and steering in 'flight').
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Hatty
Site Admin
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In: Berkshire
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Whether as a cart or a plough, the Wain has to do travel |
Transport, literally cart before horse perhaps. Might ploughs have developed from sleds? Wiki says "the plough was traditionally known by other names, e.g. Old English sulh, Old High German medela or huohili, and Old Norse arðr.
The current word plough also comes from Germanic, but it appears relatively late (it is absent from Gothic), and is thought to be a loanword from one of the north Italic languages". The origins of the word seem rather mystifying.
As Dan has pointed out, the wheel isn't especially useful and certainly not in snowy or icy conditions, unlike runners.
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Hatty wrote: | It's reminiscent of a 'bear spirit' rather than a bear as such. Seems alien to us because shamanistic lore has always been kept firmly on the fringes unlike creatures like winged horses and flying reindeer that are accepted without blinking as part of Classical or Western mythology. |
Maybe the constellation was originally thought to be a fox. There's an Algonquin story (or Cree, or Norse, or German depending on who you believe) about how the bear lost its tail.
One day a clever fox tricked a bear into sticking his tail in a pond to catch fish. Then the pond froze. When the bear stood up his tail got stuck in the ice and came off.
http://www.cqsb.qc.ca/svs/434/fnbear.htm
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